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Author Topic:   Judging one another, in scripture and in general
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1 of 63 (324021)
06-20-2006 5:39 PM


From about Message 117 of the thread "The Christian View of Life." to #128 or so, we got off topic onto the familiar idea that we are not to judge one another -- and I was being judged for judging others.
I maintain that the familiar view of judging one another is not scriptural, though it is often preached with a great deal of heat, and that in fact what Jesus meant by His exhortation against judging others was simply that we are not to condemn others for their sins. There is plenty in scripture otherwise to both exhort us and demonstrate that a Christian IS to judge questions of doctrine or truth, and that's what I was doing.
There is a related typical misunderstanding of scripture to the effect that we are supposedly not to judge the human heart because that's God's job. The fact is that scripture shows the apostles judging others' hearts and makes it clear that it's not that we're not supposed to, or unable to. If anything it may imply that we may judge wrongly while God sees the heart and always judges rightly, but I'm not sure even this much is implied. I see no exhortation whatever in scripture against humans judging other's hearts. There is also some implication that we are wrong when we judge others strictly or what is thought to be harshly, because God supposedly sees good intentions in the heart that people don't see. Scripture actually more often demonstrates the opposite, that God sees sin and deceit in the heart.
If you want, I'll try to get back to this to lay out some scriptures in support of this contention.
I want the topic to be broad enough to include anybody's thoughts on judging or judgment in general rather than strictly on a scriptural basis, though obviously the reason it is a big issue is because of scripture.
I suppose this belongs in Faith and Belief.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 06-20-2006 7:41 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 5 by arachnophilia, posted 06-20-2006 7:54 PM Faith has replied
 Message 7 by Coragyps, posted 06-20-2006 8:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 12 of 63 (324170)
06-21-2006 1:48 AM


Concerning our judging the heart
These are examples I brought over from the other thread of two points concerning this idea that we are not to judge other's hearts because that is God's job.
The implication is that you are too hard on the person's heart. God sees something nice there where you are seeing something wrong.
The first example here is an example of what God is likely to see in the human heart -- God sees our idolatries. And besides this there is Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? And in fact this is the theme throughout scripture.
quote:
Psa 44:20-22 If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god; Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.
And the rest of the examples I came up with (there are plenty more where these came from) show the apostles specifically judging people's hearts as if they could see into them and as if they had every right to comment on what they see. The first one is a negative judgment, the others are positive, except for the mention of the secrets of the heart "made manifest" which are certainly sins:
quote:
Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
1Cr 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
2Cr 8:16 But thanks [be] to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.
Jesus' exhortation to judge not lest ye be judged is about judging in the sense of condemning sins, and this is because we are all sinners, none of us above any given sin. As a matter of fact if you condemn someone for a particular sin you may find yourself committing it soon afterward yourself as a way of reminding you not to do that.
The idea that this says we are not to judge what people believe is obviously false in relation to a great deal of the New Testament which teaches the importance of discriminating between true and false doctrine; and of protecting believers from the seductions of false doctrine brought in by people who claim to be Christians but aren't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 63 (324172)
06-21-2006 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by arachnophilia
06-20-2006 7:54 PM


Re: the subtle difference
telling people they are not christian is not "judging doctrine." it's judging someone's heart -- and they always take it as such. we shouldn't go around excluding and condemning people who should be our brothers and sisters.
Well I have to say that I have been judged and condemned in this sense all the time by supposed "Christians" here.
But telling people they are not Christian is simply a judgment of what they believe compared against what scripture teaches. The heart's disposition may certainly be surmised from this but that is not the aim of the judgment. The aim is to clarify what doctrine is truly Christian and what is false.
Paul had no problem whatever condemning the Galatians for their acceptance of the false doctrine of the Pharisees. Jesus also had no problem whatever condemning the false doctrines of the Pharisees. Or their hearts either for that matter, since He called them "whited sepulchres" all pretty on the outside but inside full of dead men's bones.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by arachnophilia, posted 06-20-2006 7:54 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 2:48 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 63 (324187)
06-21-2006 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by arachnophilia
06-21-2006 2:48 AM


Re: the subtle difference
Yes it's been said here that I'm not a real Christian, and it's been said even if not in so many words. I probably can't find the reference, but so what?
There is plenty of evidence in the scriptures that determining whether or not someone is a true Christian is definitely the right thing to do. Paul and John both teach this.
And think about it. Why is everybody so upset at this? You just want to believe in this hazy mushy way that you are saved and never have to question it? Scripture says to examine oneself to be sure you are in the faith, not just assume it based on fuzzy feelings. If someone tells you you are not saved and you know you are, why worry about it? If there's a chance you aren't, it could be the warning that saves your soul. So all this complaining about it is stupidly self-deceiving.
That's what the whole flap about circumcision was about, and all the teachings of the Pharisees, about foods and holidays and all of it. People who followed these teachings were said by Paul to be condemned and not saved, and the teachers of them he called wolves in sheeps' clothing and condemned them in very strong language.
Jesus did not judge as God, but as man, and his criteria were made plain. There is no difficulty understanding his point about the whited sepulchres.
But why focus on Jesus when I gave plenty of examples of mere human beings, the apostles, flatly judging the hearts of others. And should I mention their recognition of what was in the hearts of Ananias and Sapphira that led to their untimely deaths? Judging the heart is definitely something a Christian may do on occasion.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 2:48 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 3:50 AM Faith has replied
 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2006 9:11 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 63 (324288)
06-21-2006 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by mike the wiz
06-21-2006 9:11 AM


Re: the subtle difference
You haven't read a thing I've written on this or bothered to take it seriously, and are just slinging accusations blindly, without quoting me or anything in rebuttal. You don't try to define "judging" you just say it's "disgusting." You don't try to prove that "judging," whatever that means to you, is "against the scriptures" you simply assert that it is. You don't make any distinctions in the meanings of words, you just sling the bull according to some pat formula you memorized some time or other.
For one thing I clearly said that Jesus told us not to condemn SIN, but that judging doctrine and truth is not judging sin. Yet you go on condemning me for supposedly judging sin.
Please learn how to read. And think.
Somebody with that degree of complete disconnect with a person's words ought to be disqualified from a thread in my opinion, but we have to put up with whatever comes down the pike here no matter how irrelevant it is.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2006 9:11 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2006 10:05 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 4:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 21 of 63 (324293)
06-21-2006 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by arachnophilia
06-21-2006 3:50 AM


Re: the subtle difference
Did I say I took offense? No. Then don't put words in my mouth. Did I say I'm not a Christian? Your methods of argument are pretty sleazy for suggesting such a thing. I was answering a question of yours. Apprently it was just a cheap set-up for some kind of ridiculous accusation.
If Paul condemned converts it was because they were not true converts. If you oppose Paul you oppose Christianity and you oppose Jesus who commissioned Paul.
It is not their judgment of others but their FALSE judgement of others that the Pharisees do, having erected false hurdles for the people to obey that have nothing to do with the Law of God, that Jesus condemns.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 3:50 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 4:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
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