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Author | Topic: Free will: an illusion | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes: You could chose to look on the bright side however. You could chose to dump this notion that you have no free will. I do not currently believe that we have no free will.. rather I believe that it is more likely that God (if he exists) does not have omniscience. I am not convinced of the existance of any god, therefore I am not convinced that my future is foreknown.. therefore I have every reason to believe that my free will truely exists.
iano writes:
These are not my actual thoughts.. the point I am trying to make is that IF i believed in God as you define him (A.K.), logically I would have no choice but to assume that my free will is an illusion, a facade. Why so mournful? You seem to express a want, a desire, a will. But at the same time you know you haven't got wants, desires and a will - these thoughts are only determined by God.However, I do not believe in God as You define him. so for now.. my free will survives intact. ABE:This my thought process iano.. I place myself in a position (in this case yours) I try to find s justification for my assumed beliefs.. if I cannot find one.. or if I can find a hole, or a contradiction involved i do not believe. Edited by Creavolution, : added point
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iano Member (Idle past 1940 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Fair enough. I was dealing with the assumptions we started with and was pointing out that the consequential thinking of that core conclusion ("no free will") can't actually follow from that conclusion
What does the conclusion DO in fact. Do any consequences flow from it?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes: ...and was pointing out that the consequential thinking of that core conclusion ("no free will") can't actually follow from that conclusion I guess I'm still not seeing that. any examination of it tells me that No Free will must follow from omniscient or all knowing God.Sure, the appearance of choice and free will persists at our level. But from the outside (of eternity) we're riding a track. That is the consequence of an all knowing God as I see it.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
dictionary.com:
omni = [Latin, from omnis, all. See op- in Indo-European Roots.] so.. omni = all. Past, present, future. I don't see how you can apply limits to 'all'If Gods omniscience does not include the future then it is not OMNIscience. he is not ALL knowing.
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iano Member (Idle past 1940 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Can we work this is one direction: God is all knowing is the assumption and no free will is the consequence. Assuming free will and concluding God is not all knowing is a different issue - for the assumptions have changed.
I guess I'm still not seeing that. any examination of it tells me that No Free will must follow from omniscient or all knowing God. This is the primary conclusion. I know this is what you hold. My question is what else can be drawn from that. What comment about the 'fairness' of one being saved and the other not. Or asking the question "why should I worship a God like that?" What sub-conclusions can you draw from the primary one - if any Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes:
ok.. I'll play along.. My question is what else can be drawn from that. What comment about the 'fairness' of one being saved and the other not. Or asking the question "why should I worship a God like that?" wrt Fairness of one being saved and the oether not.. it seems this is not fair nor just. It is completely out of my control, and I will be punsished for something I have no control over. In this scenario it is not my actions or inaction that will damn me to hell. If we then accept this scenario worship of this all knowing God is obviously misplaced... even if it were our choice. but of course this is not the only scenario.. we still have the alternative of a less-than-all knowing God Edited by Creavolution, : quote repair
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iano Member (Idle past 1940 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
ok.. I'll play along.. Thank you.
wrt Fairness of one being saved and the oether not.. it seems this is not fair nor just. It is completely out of my control, You have no control for something to be completely outside it. How does one apply concepts of fairness and justice to God who would is simply exercising his right to deal with products he manufactures. Is is fair to squash a complex play-dough models when one tires of them? Hell being the squashing process If those thoughts are pre-configured to occur then where do objectivity judgement that something is fair or not come from?
and I will be punsished for something I have no control over. Punishment implies right and wrong - but you have done no right or wrong you have done what you must do. That concept too must be eliminated
In this scenario it is not my actions or inaction that will damn me to hell. Damnation too implies punishment. Can you begin to see that there are no sub-conclusions to be drawn? That there is no 'one' to draw them? That the conclusion is hollow in that is says nothing of use?
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3643 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
He shows why the time dimension is just as "there" in its full extent as the 3 space dimensions. The past and the future are all "there" all the "time". There is no "flow of time". There is a fixed past, a fixed now and a fixed future. This seems to remove "free will" as we commonly understand it. Exactly. All this talk of God's omniscience removing free-will is daft. General Relativity does a much better job... The universe as far as we understand it to this day is deterministic. It is very hard to imagine any such thing as free-will in such a universe. In my mind, if free-will exists, it is "super-natural" in origin, something added to the universe's natural law. I guess in this respect I hold similar views to Iano's. Personally, given many of the "choices" I have made, I'm quite happy with free-will not existing, in which case I am just along for the ride
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iano Member (Idle past 1940 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
The universe as far as we understand it to this day is deterministic. It's a concept that would blow my mind were it only true. Briefly: assuming it was the case for a moment, wouldn't that mean that initial conditions a long long time ago were such so as to ensure I would type what I am typing now and also that which I will type tomorrow?
Personally, given many of the "choices" I have made, I'm quite happy with free-will not existing, The very first hints of a person convicted by the holy spirit of their guilt. Heart warming.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes:
semantics.. I am unable to control it. however you wish to state it.
You have no control for something to be completely outside it. iano writes:
is it fair to send a being to eternal damnation when it has no way to avoid it?
How does one apply concepts of fairness and justice to God who would is simply exercising his right to deal with products he manufactures. Is is fair to squash a complex play-dough models when one tires of them? Hell being the squashing process iano writes:
From our point of view it seems we have objectivity or judgement... but do we really? in an all knowing god situation we do not.
If those thoughts are pre-configured to occur then where do objectivity judgement that something is fair or not come from? iano writes:
unless, God is NOT All Knowing.
Can you begin to see that there are no sub-conclusions to be drawn? That there is no 'one' to draw them? That the conclusion is hollow in that is says nothing of use?
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iano Member (Idle past 1940 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
You have no control for something to be completely outside it. This is not semantics. "I have no control..." is a sub-conclusion. Accepting this sub-conclusion you cannot then apply something you haven't got as something which is being overridden by Gods choice.
is it fair to send a being to eternal damnation when it has no way to avoid it? Another sub-conclusion is that you are a machine. Use the words which your conclusion demands of you. Is it fair to send a machine to the scrap yard when one has no more use for it. You ascribe yourself a value when the sub-conclusion demands you have none in particular. Or at least none other than what the machine maker ascribes it
From our point of view it seems we have objectivity or judgement... but do we really? in an all knowing god situation we do not. Another sub-conclusion is that we have no point of view. Our view is determined. We will say 'not fair' because that is determined - not because it is actually unfair. We might as easily say it is fair - were we so determined. Even our words are not our own. So why ascribe worth to what they say (sorry for my overuse of the word ascribe)
unless, God is NOT All Knowing. Another discussion for another day. What we are dealing with is whether "God being all knowing renders our free will an illusion". The answer cannot be Yes. Edited by iano, : clarify
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ramoss Member (Idle past 612 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Yes, you would take away 'free will' if you knew precisely what was going to happen.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3643 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Yes, you would take away 'free will' if you knew precisely what was going to happen. Then the natural universe is not compatible with free-will according to General Relatvity. It has nothing to do with God.
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iano Member (Idle past 1940 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Bump for the message I am replying to
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PurpleYouko Member Posts: 714 From: Columbia Missouri Joined: |
But omniscience based upon extrapolation from what is known, to a 'possible' outcome does not equate to true omniscience to me. and It is not the definition of omniscience I am argueing against in this thread.
I actually pointed out that problem with it as i worked through the idea with catholic Scientist.I was just rambling as I worked through a possible concept. I agree that it doesn't really solve the problem as we are still faced with the concept that a truly all knowing God would also heve to know which thread of reality was the true one and which would fall. Hence the original problem rears up again.
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