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Author Topic:   Judging one another, in scripture and in general
Faith
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Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 63 (324021)
06-20-2006 5:39 PM


From about Message 117 of the thread "The Christian View of Life." to #128 or so, we got off topic onto the familiar idea that we are not to judge one another -- and I was being judged for judging others. :)

I maintain that the familiar view of judging one another is not scriptural, though it is often preached with a great deal of heat, and that in fact what Jesus meant by His exhortation against judging others was simply that we are not to condemn others for their sins. There is plenty in scripture otherwise to both exhort us and demonstrate that a Christian IS to judge questions of doctrine or truth, and that's what I was doing.

There is a related typical misunderstanding of scripture to the effect that we are supposedly not to judge the human heart because that's God's job. The fact is that scripture shows the apostles judging others' hearts and makes it clear that it's not that we're not supposed to, or unable to. If anything it may imply that we may judge wrongly while God sees the heart and always judges rightly, but I'm not sure even this much is implied. I see no exhortation whatever in scripture against humans judging other's hearts. There is also some implication that we are wrong when we judge others strictly or what is thought to be harshly, because God supposedly sees good intentions in the heart that people don't see. Scripture actually more often demonstrates the opposite, that God sees sin and deceit in the heart.

If you want, I'll try to get back to this to lay out some scriptures in support of this contention.

I want the topic to be broad enough to include anybody's thoughts on judging or judgment in general rather than strictly on a scriptural basis, though obviously the reason it is a big issue is because of scripture.

I suppose this belongs in Faith and Belief.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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AdminNWR
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Message 2 of 63 (324086)
06-20-2006 7:18 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 175 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 3 of 63 (324094)
06-20-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
06-20-2006 5:39 PM


judging hearts
I see no exhortation whatever in scripture against humans judging other's hearts.

quote:
Mathew 7:1-5

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


quote:
Luke 6:36-38

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


There is a related typical misunderstanding of scripture to the effect that we are supposedly not to judge the human heart because that's God's job. The fact is that scripture shows the apostles judging others' hearts and makes it clear that it's not that we're not supposed to, or unable to.

scripture shows noah drunk and lewd with wine. should we do as such? scripture shows david lusting after bathsheba, and ordering the death of her husband. should we do as such? scripture shows the israelites commit genocide (at the command of god). should we do as such?

There is also some implication that we are wrong when we judge others strictly or what is thought to be harshly, because God supposedly sees good intentions in the heart that people don't see. Scripture actually more often demonstrates the opposite, that God sees sin and deceit in the heart.

god sees the sin and deceit in everyone's hearts, including ours. yet, we have been forgiven. why should we not forgive others, as we have been forgiven? the verses in question describe the punishment for our judgement: we will be judged in the same manner. if we say someone if not saved by grace, then we are not saved by grace.

Edited by arachnophilia, : typo

Edited by arachnophilia, : another typo.

Edited by arachnophilia, : subtitle.


אָרַח

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 63 (324098)
06-20-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
06-20-2006 7:41 PM


My own view is that judging others is inevitable, inescapable; we judge them morally and every other way. And the judgement need not be negative.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 175 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 5 of 63 (324099)
06-20-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
06-20-2006 5:39 PM


the subtle difference
I maintain that the familiar view of judging one another is not scriptural, though it is often preached with a great deal of heat, and that in fact what Jesus meant by His exhortation against judging others was simply that we are not to condemn others for their sins. There is plenty in scripture otherwise to both exhort us and demonstrate that a Christian IS to judge questions of doctrine or truth, and that's what I was doing.

doctrine, ok. other people, no.

telling people they are not christian is not "judging doctrine." it's judging someone's heart -- and they always take it as such. we shouldn't go around excluding and condemning people who should be our brothers and sisters.

and I was being judged for judging others.

the irony is that this is half the point of the verse. if you judge, you will be judged. if you don't -- you probably will anyways, but it'll be a far nicer judgement.

the honest point is that people who aren't christian often judge not only us for our actions, but they judge the religion we represent, and they judge christ. judgemental attitude only serve to tarnish the name of jesus, and turn people away from the truth.

it's just bad evangelism.

and it really annoys some other christians, because it makes them look bad, hurts their efforts, etc. and sometimes, it directly insults them, because they are the ones being judged.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 63 (324100)
06-20-2006 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by arachnophilia
06-20-2006 7:54 PM


Re: the subtle difference
the honest point is that people who aren't christian often judge not only us for our actions, but they judge the religion we represent, and they judge christ. judgemental attitude only serve to tarnish the name of jesus, and turn people away from the truth.

Everybody judges everybody all the time.

What is this--a bunch of politically correct bullshit?


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5396
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 7 of 63 (324102)
06-20-2006 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
06-20-2006 5:39 PM


There is a related typical misunderstanding of scripture to the effect that we are supposedly not to judge the human heart because that's God's job.

Wrong. That's a cardiologist's job.
This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 175 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 8 of 63 (324103)
06-20-2006 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by robinrohan
06-20-2006 8:00 PM


Re: the subtle difference
What is this--a bunch of politically correct bullshit?

evidently, politically incorrect.

Everybody judges everybody all the time.

of course they do. we're thinking human beings. the point is not judgement in the form of rational decisions, but condemnation. we are not to condemn others.

Edited by arachnophilia, : typo, tag


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 175 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 9 of 63 (324104)
06-20-2006 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coragyps
06-20-2006 8:03 PM


There is a related typical misunderstanding of scripture to the effect that we are supposedly not to judge the human heart because that's God's job.

Wrong. That's a cardiologist's job.

*groans*


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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 63 (324105)
06-20-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by arachnophilia
06-20-2006 8:03 PM


Re: the subtle difference
the point is not judgement in the form of rational decisions, but condemnation. we are not to condemn others.

What do you mean "rational decisions"? We judge people morally and aesthetically constantly. Always we do this.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 175 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 63 (324108)
06-20-2006 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by robinrohan
06-20-2006 8:06 PM


Re: the subtle difference
hi. welcome to christianity.

please check your human nature at the door.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 63 (324170)
06-21-2006 1:48 AM


Concerning our judging the heart
These are examples I brought over from the other thread of two points concerning this idea that we are not to judge other's hearts because that is God's job.

The implication is that you are too hard on the person's heart. God sees something nice there where you are seeing something wrong.

The first example here is an example of what God is likely to see in the human heart -- God sees our idolatries. And besides this there is Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? And in fact this is the theme throughout scripture.

quote:
Psa 44:20-22 If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god; Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

And the rest of the examples I came up with (there are plenty more where these came from) show the apostles specifically judging people's hearts as if they could see into them and as if they had every right to comment on what they see. The first one is a negative judgment, the others are positive, except for the mention of the secrets of the heart "made manifest" which are certainly sins:

quote:
Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

1Cr 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

2Cr 8:16 But thanks [be] to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.


Jesus' exhortation to judge not lest ye be judged is about judging in the sense of condemning sins, and this is because we are all sinners, none of us above any given sin. As a matter of fact if you condemn someone for a particular sin you may find yourself committing it soon afterward yourself as a way of reminding you not to do that.

The idea that this says we are not to judge what people believe is obviously false in relation to a great deal of the New Testament which teaches the importance of discriminating between true and false doctrine; and of protecting believers from the seductions of false doctrine brought in by people who claim to be Christians but aren't.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 63 (324172)
06-21-2006 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by arachnophilia
06-20-2006 7:54 PM


Re: the subtle difference
telling people they are not christian is not "judging doctrine." it's judging someone's heart -- and they always take it as such. we shouldn't go around excluding and condemning people who should be our brothers and sisters.

Well I have to say that I have been judged and condemned in this sense all the time by supposed "Christians" here.

But telling people they are not Christian is simply a judgment of what they believe compared against what scripture teaches. The heart's disposition may certainly be surmised from this but that is not the aim of the judgment. The aim is to clarify what doctrine is truly Christian and what is false.

Paul had no problem whatever condemning the Galatians for their acceptance of the false doctrine of the Pharisees. Jesus also had no problem whatever condemning the false doctrines of the Pharisees. Or their hearts either for that matter, since He called them "whited sepulchres" all pretty on the outside but inside full of dead men's bones.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 175 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 14 of 63 (324180)
06-21-2006 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
06-21-2006 2:01 AM


Re: the subtle difference
Well I have to say that I have been judged and condemned in this sense all the time by supposed "Christians" here.

can you provide a single instance were someone has said that you are not a real christian?

But telling people they are not Christian is simply a judgment of what they believe compared against what scripture teaches. The heart's disposition may certainly be surmised from this but that is not the aim of the judgment. The aim is to clarify what doctrine is truly Christian and what is false.

evidently, you believe it is ok to condemn others, when scripture strictly forbids it. so by your own standards -- even if others have condemned you as not a real christian, it's totally ok. your hearts position may certainly be surmised from your treatment of others, and condemnation is not a christian doctrine.

Paul had no problem whatever condemning the Galatians for their acceptance of the false doctrine of the Pharisees.

you mean the false doctrine of circumcision? where he says that if you are circumcised, you are held to law and cannot be saved by christ? why faith, i think you should have participated in the last circumcision thread more strongly!

Jesus also had no problem whatever condemning the false doctrines of the Pharisees. Or their hearts either for that matter, since He called them "whited sepulchres" all pretty on the outside but inside full of dead men's bones.

surely you realize that jesus was a bit of a special case. jesus is in a place to judge the hearts of men -- but we are not all jesus, are we?


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 2:01 AM Faith has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 63 (324187)
06-21-2006 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by arachnophilia
06-21-2006 2:48 AM


Re: the subtle difference
Yes it's been said here that I'm not a real Christian, and it's been said even if not in so many words. I probably can't find the reference, but so what?

There is plenty of evidence in the scriptures that determining whether or not someone is a true Christian is definitely the right thing to do. Paul and John both teach this.

And think about it. Why is everybody so upset at this? You just want to believe in this hazy mushy way that you are saved and never have to question it? Scripture says to examine oneself to be sure you are in the faith, not just assume it based on fuzzy feelings. If someone tells you you are not saved and you know you are, why worry about it? If there's a chance you aren't, it could be the warning that saves your soul. So all this complaining about it is stupidly self-deceiving.

That's what the whole flap about circumcision was about, and all the teachings of the Pharisees, about foods and holidays and all of it. People who followed these teachings were said by Paul to be condemned and not saved, and the teachers of them he called wolves in sheeps' clothing and condemned them in very strong language.

Jesus did not judge as God, but as man, and his criteria were made plain. There is no difficulty understanding his point about the whited sepulchres.

But why focus on Jesus when I gave plenty of examples of mere human beings, the apostles, flatly judging the hearts of others. And should I mention their recognition of what was in the hearts of Ananias and Sapphira that led to their untimely deaths? Judging the heart is definitely something a Christian may do on occasion.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2006 9:11 AM Faith has responded

    
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