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Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 208 of 309 (323410)
06-19-2006 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by iano
06-19-2006 4:49 PM


Re: Suspending Disbelief
If you accept the premise that Crevo put up then you do not think - therefore you do not ask questions. What you must conclude is that because you do think God cannot be all knowing
How many more times do I have to say this.
the logical outcome of the question is that WE DO NOT THINK! Since you cannot prove that we do, it is an assumption and as such is a third premise which I DO NOT ACCEPT for the duration of this discussion.
That things that do not think also do not ask questions is also irrelevent since I accept that the premises come to the logical conclusion that WE DO NOT and CANNOT ask questions.
Furthermore I am NOT asking the question.
I am right now mindlessly performing an action over which I have absolutely no control. I have no free will to do anything else.
Regarding the question: assuming an all knowing God and the fact that you think means that an all knowing God does NOT render free will illusionary
Yes it would. Good job that is NOT what I'm claiming then.
That we can think is that third premise that you keep trying to interject. You know, the one that i do not accept. Please stop doing it and just answer the question with ONLY the two premises.
It is not possible to include the premise that we can think since whether we actually think or not is part of the conclusion that we are trying to reach.
It is not a question of me "not letting you go there". I am dealing with the question asked given the assumptions he posed
Agreed then. The question is "does the existence of an A.K. God negate free will?"
I was wrong to go back and question the 2 premises since they ARE accepted. I will not do so any more for the duration of this thread.
However as I said before and above, I will NOT accept any other premises, particularly ones which are by definition contrary to the obvious conclusion of the question.
unless you can suggest a way whereby machines can ask questions
Simple. We are programmed to. There is no free thought involved in it whatsoever.
(whilst not begging the question in assuming we are machines - for that assumes an answer to the question asked)
No question being begged here.
2 premises one conclusion and no accepted premise that implicitly denies the conclusion as that would be patently stupid to do.
If the premises lead to the conclusion that we are unthinking then so be it. I have no problem with that. It just means I am pre-programmed to do exactly what I am doing. No thoughts (except programmed ones) no free will. No logical falacy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 4:49 PM iano has not replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 270 of 309 (324287)
06-21-2006 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Heathen
06-20-2006 11:22 AM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
But omniscience based upon extrapolation from what is known, to a 'possible' outcome does not equate to true omniscience to me. and It is not the definition of omniscience I am argueing against in this thread.
I actually pointed out that problem with it as i worked through the idea with catholic Scientist.
I was just rambling as I worked through a possible concept.
I agree that it doesn't really solve the problem as we are still faced with the concept that a truly all knowing God would also heve to know which thread of reality was the true one and which would fall. Hence the original problem rears up again.

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 Message 228 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 11:22 AM Heathen has not replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 272 of 309 (324291)
06-21-2006 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Codegate
06-20-2006 12:08 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
The only thing that God doesn't know, is what choices we will make
Then this negates the concept of omniscience would you not say?
If there is anything that he doesn't know then he doesn't know everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Codegate, posted 06-20-2006 12:08 PM Codegate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Codegate, posted 06-21-2006 10:29 AM PurpleYouko has replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 273 of 309 (324294)
06-21-2006 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 12:24 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
I leave the 'anytime' condition out of it and consider the future unknowable. I have no conflict with omniscience and free will.
Nor do I, as I told you before.
But wouldn't you say that you are now the one placing limits on God?
Doesn't "everything", by definition include.... everything?
Isn't all time part of everything?
Can "anything" (such as all time) NOT be part of everything?
Now you are just confusing me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 12:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 10:02 AM PurpleYouko has replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 275 of 309 (324300)
06-21-2006 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by cavediver
06-20-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Is knowing the future enough to destroy free-will?
If tomorrow I see you jump in a lake, have I removed your free will?
Uhhhh.... Yes. If I jump in the lake how can I choose to NOT jump in it? It is a past event. I have no power to change past events.
How about if I then travel back to today throgh a convenient wormhole, have I removed your free-will?
Again. Yes. To do anything other than what you have observed me do would be to change history and as you have argued with randman, you can't change history. This applies to future history too.
How about if I then tell you that tomorrow you will jump in the lake?
So how would you propose that I not jump in the lake then? If I don't then we have a paradox.
In any of these scenarios, have I removed your free-will? (assuming it was there to begin with)
Again a resounding YES. The same issue applies with time travel as with God's omniscience. the only way you can travel into the future is if all time already exists in a fixed pattern.
The only alternative is Alternate possible futures and you don't know which time line you went into so when you saw me jump in the lake it was only one possible future.
God doesn't have that problem since his "omniscience" allows him to know which possible future is the real one.
Now, is your argument more to do with God being creator AND being omniscient that causes the problem?
I don't see how being the creator can have anything to do with it.
In fact the two premises that we agreed to examine at the start of this thread do not assume that he is.
Any omniscient being raises the same problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by cavediver, posted 06-20-2006 12:26 PM cavediver has not replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 277 of 309 (324308)
06-21-2006 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by iano
06-20-2006 1:47 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
It just struck me. It seems to me that "if what will be will be" is true then what will be will be and no one should concern themselves too much about it.
Well technically we aren't concerning ourselves about it since we really have no choice in anything we do or think.
Whats the big deal if we do not, in fact, have free will?
There isn't one. It doesn't matter in the least. This is just an exercise in logic.
Either we are really thinking it through by exercising our free will or we have none and are following a predetermined path. Either way the outcome is the same. It appears to be free will to us because we do not "personally" have future knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 1:47 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 10:16 AM PurpleYouko has replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 279 of 309 (324314)
06-21-2006 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2006 10:02 AM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
Is omniscience limitless?
I would say no.
Since I would say yes, it is obvious that we aren't operating under the same definitions are we?
You have also agreed in an earlier post that if the future is "pre-determined" then we have no free will.
Your disagreement with me and crevo appears to be an arbitrary one of definition. If we use yours then omniscience is limited (not limitless) and the whole problem evaporates like morning mist.
If, however, you look at it by the agreed upon premise of this thread (ie. omniscience IS limitless) then what do you see?
No, anything can't NOT be a part of everything but some things can (not be a part of everything) and these are things that do not exist, because they are not things to begin with. The future is one of these things, IMO.
So how does prophecy work then?
Anyway, I can happily accept and even agree with what you are saying but your argument is kinda meaningless when the premise of the question (for this thread only) is that God DOES know the future.
Better now?
Much better thanks. Particularly now that I know we have no real disagreement to argue about anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 10:02 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 10:33 AM PurpleYouko has replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 281 of 309 (324319)
06-21-2006 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by iano
06-20-2006 3:27 PM


Re: Que Sera, Sera
Fair enough. I was dealing with the assumptions we started with and was pointing out that the consequential thinking of that core conclusion ("no free will") can't actually follow from that conclusion
Iano you keep saying that but so far you have failed to even addres teh pivotal question without first interjecting the assumption that we DO actually think and have freewill.
Of course the question makes no sense in that context.
Why are you unable to step outside of your assumptions and just stick with the premises and nothing else.
1 God exists
2 God knows EVRYTHING, specifically including the future and every choice that every one of us will ever make.
The question is that given these two premises, do we have free will. Does any choice that we make (or have the illusion of making) actually affect the outcome in any way.
If God knows I am going to jump into CaveDiver's lake tomorrow, Is there any way that I can choose to NOT jump into it?
Those are the only considerations.
You cannot also assume that we are able to think since that is part of the answer we are trying to determine.
Just answer the question already. It isn't like the answer even matters. It's just an exercise of logic. Just follow the logic through
Just remember that if you answer that I can choose not to jump in that lake and instead spend all day in front of my computer then God's foreknowledge was wrong. That can only mean that the premise was wrong.
Whatever the outcome, it doesn't matter to me in the least. Just honestly address the question. There is nothing illogical about it. It's really quite simple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 3:27 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:06 AM PurpleYouko has replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 283 of 309 (324327)
06-21-2006 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by iano
06-20-2006 5:36 PM


Re: Que Sera, Sera
How does one apply concepts of fairness and justice to God who would is simply exercising his right to deal with products he manufactures. Is is fair to squash a complex play-dough models when one tires of them? Hell being the squashing process
If those thoughts are pre-configured to occur then where do objectivity judgement that something is fair or not come from?
I'm afraid I have to side with Iano on this issue. (wow that's a first)
We are all just microbes in God's petri dish.
If he wants to introduce penicilin then that's his business.
Unfortunately the words to the Black Sabbath song Who are you come to mind.
Ozzy writes:
Yes I know the secret
That's within your mind
You think all the people
Who worship you are blind
You're just like Big Brother
Giving us your trust
And when you have played enough
You'll just cast our souls
Into the dust
Into the dust
You thought that it would be easy
from the very start
Now I've found you out
I don't think you're so smart
I only have one more question
Before my time is through
Please I beg you tell me
In the name of hell
Who are you?
Who are you?
In the grand scheme of things (which as previously stated i accept for this thread) God's motivations are pretty much meaningless to us in any real way. Does the bacteria question the motivations of the scientist who applies the anti-bacterial agent to his petri dish?
This was never my tack in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 5:36 PM iano has not replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 284 of 309 (324331)
06-21-2006 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by cavediver
06-20-2006 5:57 PM


Re: Not pre-determined just determined
Exactly. All this talk of God's omniscience removing free-will is daft. General Relativity does a much better job...
Cavediver, We aren't so much arguing that God's omniscience actually removes free will as much as that in a universe where it is possible for God to have omniscience (specifically including future knowledge), we simply don't have any to start with.
The argument of logic is simply this.
If God knows all then it must be possible to know all. Therefore the future is pre-determined. God himself really has nothing to do with it when you get right down to basics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by cavediver, posted 06-20-2006 5:57 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2006 11:03 AM PurpleYouko has replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 286 of 309 (324338)
06-21-2006 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by iano
06-21-2006 10:16 AM


Re: Now I affirm it, now I don't
Not if your are assuming the assumption and affirming the conclusion. You must (as you are doing) suspend affirming the conclusion of Q.1 in order to comment using logic and reason etc. This means the conclusion cannot actually in fact be. If it were then you couldn't step outside it to comment.
Don't be silly. Given the affirmative answer then even attempting to step outside of the question is a pre-determined action over which i have no control.
And I really have no issue with the sub conclusions if they follow in a logical path. I am not concerning myself with God's motivations. I can't know them anyway so why bother/ beside which the thoughts and questions would not trully be my own anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 10:16 AM iano has not replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 287 of 309 (324344)
06-21-2006 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Codegate
06-21-2006 10:29 AM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
That is quite omniscient in my opinion.
Isn't that a bit like being "quite" pregnant?
he either knows everything, past future, present or he doesn't.
The exception is, because God gave us the gift of 'free will' he is unable to know which of those paths we will follow
Sounds like you and catholic Scientist think the same way. Me too to some degree. The point is though that thepremises for this thread are to ask the question based on the definition that Omniscience mean ABSOLUTE omniscience. No limits. He knows the future and everything in it.
I'm not claiming that is the way it is in reality.
I am just exploring the ramifications if it were true.
Perhaps because God is also omnipotent he decided to permanently remove his ability to know which choice we would make.
Nice
He uses his omnipotence to remove his own omniscience.
Either way this God no longer fits the premise for this thread so let's forget about him.
The only God i am interested in is truly and 100% omniscient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Codegate, posted 06-21-2006 10:29 AM Codegate has not replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 289 of 309 (324347)
06-21-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2006 10:33 AM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
No free will.
That we don't really have free will and it seems like we do, the OP is correct in that it could be called an illusion.
That or god isn't omniscient, because it sure does seem like I have free will.
My original post in this thread was without reading the OP and really only disagree with the interpretation of the definition of omniscience.
So how does prophecy work then?
Omnipotence.
ROFLMAO
You crack me up.
God Forces his prophecies to come true.
I love it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 10:33 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 11:13 AM PurpleYouko has replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 291 of 309 (324352)
06-21-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by cavediver
06-21-2006 11:03 AM


Re: Not pre-determined just determined
Personally I do not see that this omniscience does necessarily remove free will
No it doesn't. You are misunderstanding my point.
I'm not saying that omniscience causes the loss of free will.
What I am saying is that it is not possible to be omniscient (ie. know the future) unless the future is already in a state of predeterminism. You can't infallibly know it to be true if it ain't true right?
That means that the possible existance of Omniscience is a symptom, not a cause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2006 11:03 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2006 11:23 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 293 of 309 (324361)
06-21-2006 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by iano
06-21-2006 11:06 AM


Re: Que Sera, Sera
Maybe the problem lies in the understanding of the word foreknowing. If one takes the view that choices haven't been made yet by us but God can see into the future and thus foreknow then you could well have a point. But is that the only way to picture it?
Good you finally understand what I have been saying.
OK so what other way is there to look at it?
God is eternal - and that means that there is no past, present and future for him. Time doesn't elapse for him as it does for us.
Sounds exactly like what cavediver stated earlier.
All 4 dimensional space already exists and can be viewed from God's unique perspective of being "outside" it all.
God would look at every moment of our lives as still frames on a piece of film. He knows what our choice is not because he is looking into the future but because he is looking at the present. Him looking at the present doesn't mean we weren't the ones exposing each frame on the film. We exposed, are exposing, will expose each frame and are free to do so. God, in eternity simply observes each frame that we have already exposed.
Except that in this scenario, from outside of time, all the frames would already exist. They would be stationary. From outside of time, could any change within time even be meaningfull or possible.
All our decisions are already made in eternity. We just haven't made them yet in time.
Therefore we cannot choose to make any decision other than the one that is written in eternity. This is the most absolute definition of determinism that I have ever seen.
We just haven't made them yet in time. But they are our decisions whenever it is they get made. It doesn't matter which decisions we do make. That will just affect a film in the making (in time) which is already made (in eternity)
So our choices are fixed. The film has been made and viewed many times (by anyone outside of time such as God and maybe his angels)
I don't see one single shred of free will in this scenario. It is in fact precisely the scenario that I have been putting forward throughout this entire thread.
We are characters in a book that has already been written. A movie that is already made. We can't change one single thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:06 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2006 11:29 AM PurpleYouko has not replied
 Message 298 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:30 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

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