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Author
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Topic: Free will: an illusion
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 246 of 309 (323871)
06-20-2006 12:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 243 by cavediver
06-20-2006 12:44 PM
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Re: Is knowing the future enough to destroy free-will?
By knowing what will happen. He knows before the moment what our decisions will be. in our little bubble we have the perception of choices and of free will. But nothing we do will change what God knows and has always known will be. Abe:
cavediver writes: take away your free-will
not so much take away... it was never there in the firstplace Edited by Creavolution, : additional point
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 243 by cavediver, posted 06-20-2006 12:44 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 251 of 309 (323917)
06-20-2006 2:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 248 by iano
06-20-2006 1:47 PM
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Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
iano writes: It just struck me. It seems to me that "if what will be will be" is true then what will be will be and no one should concern themselves too much about it. If I (for example) end up in heaven and you (for example) end up in hell because we were destined to end up there (without our having a part in proceedings) then that is just the way it is.
indeed That what your position seems to me to be. We do not choose god, he chooses us. You are destined for heaven I am destined for hell. God created me knowing I was destined for hell. what nice chap. tell me why I should worship such a being?
iano writes: Whats the big deal if we do not, in fact, have free will?
The big deal for you would be that your God is cruel, spiteful creating us only so that we should suffer. THe big deal for me is... well... nothing, as here I am... on my default path nothing will change where I am going. thanks God!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 248 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 1:47 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 255 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 2:25 PM | | Heathen has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
catholic scientist writes: Unknowable to omniscience
contradiction in terms I think. that does not make any sense to me.
quote:
is the past? Yeah, even I can know the past
So if you don't or can't know something it simply doesn't exist?
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 256 of 309 (323947)
06-20-2006 3:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 255 by iano
06-20-2006 2:25 PM
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Re: Que Sera, Sera
iano writes: You could chose to look on the bright side however. You could chose to dump this notion that you have no free will. I do not currently believe that we have no free will.. rather I believe that it is more likely that God (if he exists) does not have omniscience. I am not convinced of the existance of any god, therefore I am not convinced that my future is foreknown.. therefore I have every reason to believe that my free will truely exists.
iano writes: Why so mournful? You seem to express a want, a desire, a will. But at the same time you know you haven't got wants, desires and a will - these thoughts are only determined by God.
These are not my actual thoughts.. the point I am trying to make is that IF i believed in God as you define him (A.K.), logically I would have no choice but to assume that my free will is an illusion, a facade. However, I do not believe in God as You define him. so for now.. my free will survives intact. ABE: This my thought process iano.. I place myself in a position (in this case yours) I try to find s justification for my assumed beliefs.. if I cannot find one.. or if I can find a hole, or a contradiction involved i do not believe. Edited by Creavolution, : added point
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 255 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 2:25 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 257 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 3:27 PM | | Heathen has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 258 of 309 (323969)
06-20-2006 3:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 257 by iano
06-20-2006 3:27 PM
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Re: Que Sera, Sera
iano writes: ...and was pointing out that the consequential thinking of that core conclusion ("no free will") can't actually follow from that conclusion I guess I'm still not seeing that. any examination of it tells me that No Free will must follow from omniscient or all knowing God. Sure, the appearance of choice and free will persists at our level. But from the outside (of eternity) we're riding a track. That is the consequence of an all knowing God as I see it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 257 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 3:27 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 260 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 5:06 PM | | Heathen has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
dictionary.com: omni = [Latin, from omnis, all. See op- in Indo-European Roots.] so.. omni = all. Past, present, future. I don't see how you can apply limits to 'all' If Gods omniscience does not include the future then it is not OMNIscience. he is not ALL knowing.
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 261 of 309 (324010)
06-20-2006 5:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 260 by iano
06-20-2006 5:06 PM
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Re: Que Sera, Sera
iano writes: My question is what else can be drawn from that. What comment about the 'fairness' of one being saved and the other not. Or asking the question "why should I worship a God like that?"
ok.. I'll play along.. wrt Fairness of one being saved and the oether not.. it seems this is not fair nor just. It is completely out of my control, and I will be punsished for something I have no control over. In this scenario it is not my actions or inaction that will damn me to hell. If we then accept this scenario worship of this all knowing God is obviously misplaced... even if it were our choice. but of course this is not the only scenario.. we still have the alternative of a less-than-all knowing God Edited by Creavolution, : quote repair
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 260 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 5:06 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 262 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 5:36 PM | | Heathen has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 265 of 309 (324070)
06-20-2006 6:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 262 by iano
06-20-2006 5:36 PM
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Re: Que Sera, Sera
iano writes: You have no control for something to be completely outside it.
semantics.. I am unable to control it. however you wish to state it.
iano writes: How does one apply concepts of fairness and justice to God who would is simply exercising his right to deal with products he manufactures. Is is fair to squash a complex play-dough models when one tires of them? Hell being the squashing process
is it fair to send a being to eternal damnation when it has no way to avoid it?
iano writes: If those thoughts are pre-configured to occur then where do objectivity judgement that something is fair or not come from?
From our point of view it seems we have objectivity or judgement... but do we really? in an all knowing god situation we do not.
iano writes: Can you begin to see that there are no sub-conclusions to be drawn? That there is no 'one' to draw them? That the conclusion is hollow in that is says nothing of use?
unless, God is NOT All Knowing.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 262 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 5:36 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 266 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 7:04 PM | | Heathen has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 285 of 309 (324334)
06-21-2006 10:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 266 by iano
06-20-2006 7:04 PM
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Re: Que Sera, Sera
iano writes: Another discussion for another day. What we are dealing with is whether "God being all knowing renders our free will an illusion". The answer cannot be Yes.
It is very much part of the same point, it is very much what follows from examination, whether you choose to address it or not.
iano writes: This is not semantics. "I have no control..." is a sub-conclusion. Accepting this sub-conclusion you cannot then apply something you haven't got as something which is being overridden by Gods choice.
Iano.. are you applying the 'no free will scenario twice? I have no control as a result of an all knowing god, I do not then try to take control away? I think you are getting confused. You are making the mistake of 'ascribing' the opinion that God is all knowing to me. rather than realising I am simply pointing out the illogic with an all knowing god and free will. I'm sorry.. I don't know what it is I'm missing, but I do not see how the answer cannot be yes. I simply don't see what point you are getting at?
iano writes: Another sub-conclusion is that you are a machine. Use the words which your conclusion demands of you. Is it fair to send a machine to the scrap yard when one has no more use for it. You ascribe yourself a value when the sub-conclusion demands you have none in particular. Or at least none other than what the machine maker ascribes it
So: no free will means we have no value... How does this imply that a.k. god = free will?
iano writes: Another sub-conclusion is that we have no point of view. Our view is determined. We will say 'not fair' because that is determined - not because it is actually unfair. We might as easily say it is fair - were we so determined. Even our words are not our own. So why ascribe worth to what they say (sorry for my overuse of the word ascribe)
So: no free will means our thoughts are not really our own.. so what? how does this demonstrate that a.k. god = free will?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 266 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 7:04 PM | | iano has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 296 of 309 (324366)
06-21-2006 11:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 290 by iano
06-21-2006 11:06 AM
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Re: Que Sera, Sera
iano writes: If one takes the view that choices haven't been made yet by us but God can see into the future and thus foreknow then you could well have a point. But is that the only way to picture it?
so... god isn't "all Knowing"?
iano writes: God would look at every moment of our lives as still frames on a piece of film
wow Eternity.. the motion picture... they made a film of the book eh?
iano writes: All our decisions are already made in eternity
and God can see them? or is aware of them?
iano writes: But they are our decisions whenever it is they get made. but if the outcome is known before 'we' make these decisions... what hope have we of influencing them?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 290 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:06 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 299 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:33 AM | | Heathen has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 303 of 309 (324403)
06-21-2006 12:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 298 by iano
06-21-2006 11:30 AM
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Re: Que Sera, Sera
iano writes: The book is already written in eternity. You are free to write the book any way you like but whichever way you do that is the book that God is viewing. No matter which way you WILL chose to write it, that is the book he IS viewing
but at anytime he can flip fwd and see what will be? He knows exactly how you will write it. it seem to me that this is then fixed. a defined, definfite outcome from which we can/will not deviate. therefore, as I have no awarenes of this pre destined future I am not in a position to avoid it. so from my point of view... free will... I think I'm writing this book. but from god's point of view... I am a character in the novel called 'eternity' with no more ability to change the eventual outcome than a character in any work of fiction we read. this is the illusion of free will we have. unless of course.. God is not all knowing, and our future is unwritten Edited by Creavolution, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 298 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:30 AM | | iano has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 305 of 309 (324411)
06-21-2006 12:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 304 by cavediver
06-21-2006 12:48 PM
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Re: Que Sera, Sera
cavediver writes: So who did decide your actions?
Great question.. one that no-one else has asked... I'm not sure I can even answer it (given I'm trying to rush before we're shut down), I would say the all knowing God has some resposibility seeing as he programmed us to respond as we do. maybe if we whisper no one will notice...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 304 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2006 12:48 PM | | cavediver has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 306 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2006 1:02 PM | | Heathen has not replied |
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