Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Judging one another, in scripture and in general
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 16 of 63 (324194)
06-21-2006 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
06-21-2006 3:12 AM


Re: the subtle difference
Yes it's been said here that I'm not a real Christian, and it's been said even if not in so many words. I probably can't find the reference, but so what?
so why do you take offense at it? since, by your own definition, you are not a real christian?
There is plenty of evidence in the scriptures that determining whether or not someone is a true Christian is definitely the right thing to do. Paul and John both teach this.
and mark teaches us that we can spot them by the poison they drink and the snakes they dance with.
That's what the whole flap about circumcision was about, and all the teachings of the Pharisees, about foods and holidays and all of it. People who followed these teachings were said by Paul to be condemned and not saved, and the teachers of them he called wolves in sheeps' clothing and condemned them in very strong language.
yes, godforbid anyone be jewish. any wonder why many of us here don't like paul too much? and what to do about all those jewish converts he was condemning in the process? all of those people who were circumcised on the 8th day, because it was part of their culture. like jesus. and his 12 closest friends. and most american christians. like i said, you should have participated in the last circumcision thread -- it would have been nice to have a nice strong voice there proclaiming that everyone who is circumcised is condemned to hell no matter what.
Jesus did not judge as God, but as man, and his criteria were made plain.
i think, perhaps, you should rethink this position. the hebrew word that "pharisee" comes from means "separate." they were the elite, and elitist class of priests. they were the people responsible for saying who was allowed into the temple, and who was unclean and exiled. it was the unclean people, the lepers and the prostitutes and the tax collectors, the lower class and the exiled that jesus spent his ministry preaching to. jesus brought the church to them, and showed mercy to those whom everyone spat on.
let's read matthew 23, where the "whited sepulcre" verse is found, in context, shall we? maybe we can see why jesus says such things about the perushim?
quote:
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
quote:
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
one of the things that jesus takes particular exception with is their judgement of others, particular in relation the iniquity of their own hearts. he rails against them for being hypocrites: judging the sins of others when their hearts are just as rotten.
and, yes, the perushim were in a position to judge. it was part of the their job description, actually. since israel was a theocracy (even while occupied by rome) they were much like our judges and jury. but that's part of the sacrifical ritual, and a part they had perverted for monetary gain, while ignoring it themselves.
but the two bits that seem to particulary irk him is their exclusion of people from the religion, and the usage of fire-and-brimstone tactics. part of this very tirade is against the very behaviour you demonstrate.
compassion and forgiveness, faith. inclusion -- the gospel is for all, and we are all set free. hope -- for god forgives.
Judging the heart is definitely something a Christian may do on occasion.
again, not according to jesus.
Edited by arachnophilia, : typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 3:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 9:41 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 17 of 63 (324235)
06-21-2006 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coragyps
06-20-2006 8:03 PM


Wrong. That's a cardiologist's job.
Well, doesn't that beat all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Coragyps, posted 06-20-2006 8:03 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 18 of 63 (324275)
06-21-2006 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
06-21-2006 3:12 AM


Re: the subtle difference
Arach's scripture quote writes:
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Faith, I think you're totally wrong. You've baked some bizarre interpretation so that you can personally go on judging others. I advise that you don't judge others.
Judging others is a disgusting sin. It is also a completely irrational and insecure characteristic. Knowing information, and therefore judging a circumstance correctly because things are at stake, is not the same as general nasty spiteful guesses about people.
Judging other people is clearly against the scriptures, and Christ's message to people in general.
There is plenty of evidence in the scriptures that determining whether or not someone is a true Christian is definitely the right thing to do.
Knowing people by their fruit and being cautious isn't the same as judging people in general, and saying nasty things about them, because you personally have wild irrational guesses about them. You cannot know if they truly are Christian, so how can it be a righteouss judgement?
And your comment about God knowing it is sin in their heart has nothing to do with what the point was. The point was that you don't know if the person is sinful or not, or repentant or not, or has some unforeseable inexplicable circumstances only he and God know about.
I have always rememered what a homeless man said to me once; "thanks for not judging me". If I had thought nasty things in my heart about him such as, "you drunk, get a job, get a home", then 1. I would have judged him even though I am sinful and don't even know the man,(Arach's scripture quote) and 2. I wouldn't have helped him. Therefore such judgements cause me to sin, and not help someone God commands to help.
God, who is righteouss, is the one who frees the sinner despite his sin, yet the fellow-servant, who has many sins, judges the sinner. (Think about this sentence a lot)
People in general, aren't law enforcers, so Christ can not have been talking about physical judgement, as the scripture is a warning to all. (this is a logical deduction)
"Thou hypocrite" indicates a linguistic situation, aswell as, "how wilt thou say to thy brother".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 3:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 9:36 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 20 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 9:39 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 63 (324288)
06-21-2006 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by mike the wiz
06-21-2006 9:11 AM


Re: the subtle difference
You haven't read a thing I've written on this or bothered to take it seriously, and are just slinging accusations blindly, without quoting me or anything in rebuttal. You don't try to define "judging" you just say it's "disgusting." You don't try to prove that "judging," whatever that means to you, is "against the scriptures" you simply assert that it is. You don't make any distinctions in the meanings of words, you just sling the bull according to some pat formula you memorized some time or other.
For one thing I clearly said that Jesus told us not to condemn SIN, but that judging doctrine and truth is not judging sin. Yet you go on condemning me for supposedly judging sin.
Please learn how to read. And think.
Somebody with that degree of complete disconnect with a person's words ought to be disqualified from a thread in my opinion, but we have to put up with whatever comes down the pike here no matter how irrelevant it is.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2006 9:11 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2006 10:05 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 4:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 20 of 63 (324292)
06-21-2006 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by mike the wiz
06-21-2006 9:11 AM


Re: the subtle difference
Faith, I think you're totally wrong. You've baked some bizarre interpretation so that you can personally go on judging others. I advise that you don't judge others
Are you judging here Mike? Judging Faith to be wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2006 9:11 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2006 10:29 AM iano has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 21 of 63 (324293)
06-21-2006 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by arachnophilia
06-21-2006 3:50 AM


Re: the subtle difference
Did I say I took offense? No. Then don't put words in my mouth. Did I say I'm not a Christian? Your methods of argument are pretty sleazy for suggesting such a thing. I was answering a question of yours. Apprently it was just a cheap set-up for some kind of ridiculous accusation.
If Paul condemned converts it was because they were not true converts. If you oppose Paul you oppose Christianity and you oppose Jesus who commissioned Paul.
It is not their judgment of others but their FALSE judgement of others that the Pharisees do, having erected false hurdles for the people to obey that have nothing to do with the Law of God, that Jesus condemns.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 3:50 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 4:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 22 of 63 (324304)
06-21-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
06-21-2006 9:36 AM


Re: the subtle difference
This rant is a neat way of not answering the refutations of your points, I have just made.
I directly addressed your claims.
Ad hominem satements such as, "Please learn how to read. And think.", and, "Somebody with that degree of complete disconnect with a person's words ought to be disqualified from a thread", do not consitute a rebuttal.
You don't make any distinctions in the meanings of words
Ahaha. Are you saying that people at EvC don't use the definition of "judging" I have used? I'm afraid your own definition is not the one the populas use. But please, enlighten us all, afterall, you're the one making claims about what it means.
I suggest the burden is on you, to prove that judging others in general, is what Christ said we should do or even hinted at, of which I have seen no evidence for, in the least, but Arachnophilia did provide evidence to the contrary which I expounded on. As far as I can see, you've ignored my logical inferences pertaining to the linguistics behind Arach's scripture quote.
Would the following judgements/amusements/"insert any word", be fine, according to your theology?
" She's a slut that one is, look at how she dresses. "
" He's no Christian, because he believes in evolution. "
" She will burn in hell because she is an atheist. "
" He's not a true Christian, because he didn't favour Binny Henn's dress sense ".
Did you or did you not say;
Faith writes:
maintain that the familiar view of judging one another is not scriptural, though it is often preached with a great deal of heat, and that in fact what Jesus meant by His exhortation against judging others was simply that we are not to condemn others for their sins.
Faith writes:
I want the topic to be broad enough to include anybody's thoughts on judging or judgment in general rather than strictly on a scriptural basis,
What do you mean by "condemn"? Definition please.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 9:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 23 of 63 (324317)
06-21-2006 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by iano
06-21-2006 9:39 AM


Re: the subtle difference
I concede this point.
I apologize for I perhaps did judge Faith's actions in that I was shocked that anyone would defend judging, and thought that that could be the only end for her means.
Unlike many people, I am not at all bothered by admitting to being wrong.
I should have worded that better, it did come out as judgemental, sorry. I would do better to practice what I preach, ofcourse, and I'll make a note of that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 9:39 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 4:14 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 24 of 63 (324483)
06-21-2006 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
06-21-2006 9:41 AM


Re: the subtle difference
Did I say I'm not a Christian? Your methods of argument are pretty sleazy for suggesting such a thing.
yes, faith. that's the point. it is pretty sleazy, isn't it?
keep in mind that i never said you weren't a christian. i said you weren't by your definition, because you fail to follow this scripture. by contrast, you have repeatedly done a lot more than implied that other christis weren't christians. you have publicly judged and condemned other christians on this board numerous times.
watch, you do it again:
If you oppose Paul you oppose Christianity and you oppose Jesus who commissioned Paul.
pret-ty sleazy
but perhaps you missed the argument i was making: i don't oppose jesus, paul opposes jesus. paul condemns the circumcised. jesus was circumcised. the 12 disciples were circumcised. paul himself was circumcised. i'd place good money that every single pope has been circumcised.
jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it. and that includes all of the covenants therein.
If Paul condemned converts it was because they were not true converts.
perhaps you should read my posts a little more closely. i already included the very words that jesus himself said about condemning converts. why would it be ok for paul to do so, but not the pharisees?
It is not their judgment of others but their FALSE judgement of others that the Pharisees do, having erected false hurdles for the people to obey that have nothing to do with the Law of God, that Jesus condemns.
funny, i didn't see that in the text. what it's not a rant against is judging the in the sense of a judicial process. that was their job -- but, it was not their job to exclude people from the church, because they didn't like them, or their ideas, or their social class.
it's exclusion that jesus railed against. and what you do is exclude people you disagree with from christianity. you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men, you hypocrite.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 9:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 25 of 63 (324486)
06-21-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
06-21-2006 9:36 AM


Re: the subtle difference
You haven't read a thing I've written on this or bothered to take it seriously, and are just slinging accusations blindly, without quoting me or anything in rebuttal. You don't try to define "judging" you just say it's "disgusting." You don't try to prove that "judging," whatever that means to you, is "against the scriptures" you simply assert that it is. You don't make any distinctions in the meanings of words, you just sling the bull according to some pat formula you memorized some time or other.
For one thing I clearly said that Jesus told us not to condemn SIN, but that judging doctrine and truth is not judging sin. Yet you go on condemning me for supposedly judging sin.
faith, you have repeatedly judged others as not true christians. that's not "judging doctrine" that's condemning others.
Please learn how to read. And think.
Somebody with that degree of complete disconnect with a person's words ought to be disqualified from a thread in my opinion, but we have to put up with whatever comes down the pike here no matter how irrelevant it is.
shall we disqualify you from the thread, since you obviously cannot connect to the words of jesus in even the simplest literal meaning, let alone the connect to the sentiment behind them?
jesus did not say "we're our own little club, feel free to exclude whomever you wish." he did not say "it's ok to judge the hearts of men, it makes god's job easier." nor did he say "make sure you weed out those false christians, they're just tryingto trip you up."
he said, "go tell the world." he said "love your neighbor" and even "love your enemy." he said "do not condemn other." he said, "forgive, for you have been forgiven."
do you not see how your ideas are fundamentally alien to these awful bleeding-heart liberal statements? you, faith, have more in common with the pharisees, who were more concerned about keeping their church clean, and keeping the unclean masses, false believers, and the poor out of it, and out of heaven. judging others, as you have done repeatedly, is not welcoming them home to their father's kingdom, and sharing the love of christ with them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 06-21-2006 9:36 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 4:29 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 26 of 63 (324489)
06-21-2006 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by mike the wiz
06-21-2006 10:29 AM


Re: the subtle difference
I should have worded that better, it did come out as judgemental, sorry.
no no, don't let iano get to you. faith said judging the hearts of others was ok. after all, if jesus can judge the pharisees for something, we can judge her for the same thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2006 10:29 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 27 of 63 (324493)
06-21-2006 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by arachnophilia
06-21-2006 4:12 PM


Re: the subtle difference
faith, you have repeatedly judged others as not true christians. that's not "judging doctrine" that's condemning others.
If I weigh up the evidence according to the criteris of "what constitutes a Christian in my book". And a person easily fails all those criteria - does that mean they might still be a Christian according to my book? It seems if that were the case then I cannot be sure I am a Christian either for I cannot even judge myself according to those criteria. Which is patently ridiculous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 4:12 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 4:39 PM iano has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 63 (324496)
06-21-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by iano
06-21-2006 4:29 PM


Re: the subtle difference
If I weigh up the evidence according to the criteris of "what constitutes a Christian in my book". And a person easily fails all those criteria - does that mean they might still be a Christian according to my book?
it's not according to your book. that's the point of this discussion. it's according to god. not you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 4:29 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 4:47 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 29 of 63 (324499)
06-21-2006 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
06-21-2006 4:39 PM


Re: the subtle difference
it's not according to your book. that's the point of this discussion. it's according to god. not you.
Failing God commenting on the matter himself (we couldn't even get Dawkins and Dembski here remember) I suppose you will be referring to a book too.
Another case of "Reading-R-Us"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 4:39 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 4:50 PM iano has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 30 of 63 (324503)
06-21-2006 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by iano
06-21-2006 4:47 PM


Re: the subtle difference
Failing God commenting on the matter himself (we couldn't even get Dawkins and Dembski here remember) I suppose you will be referring to a book too
no, actually, and i specifically avoided typing "according to god's book" because i knew you'd misinterpret the idiom (the same one you just used) to mean something else.
judgement of christianity, belief, faith, and mens' hearts is GOD'S. not yours. not mine. not faith's, and not the pharisees. "according to my book" doesn't mean squat, because god makes the call. you do not. you don't even get a vote.
Another case of "Reading-R-Us"
yes, iano. please try to read more carefully.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 4:47 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 5:20 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024