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Author Topic:   Judging one another, in scripture and in general
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 31 of 63 (324507)
06-21-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by arachnophilia
06-21-2006 4:50 PM


Re: the subtle difference
The book I suggested you would refer to is your own book - as in "In my book x,y,z" In being challenged about your book you might refer to 'gods book' for your support. As you do here presumably:
judgement of christianity, belief, faith, and mens' hearts is GOD'S. not yours. not mine. not faith's, and not the pharisees.
..I take it that you didn't lick that idea off a stone.
"according to my book" doesn't mean squat, because god makes the call. you do not. you don't even get a vote.
If "When God calls and a person responds to that call then they become a Christian and certain things will manifest themselves..." is true then one might very easily percieve whether another patently hasn't responded to that call. Thus one is in a position to comment, to exercise their judgement. All one has to decide for themselves is, is that statement true - in order to comment.
Another case of "Reading-R-Us"
yes, iano. please try to read more carefully.
I thought it wouldn't be long until your self-declared reading comprehension skills would get hauled out. D'ya ever ask Ned his opinion?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 4:50 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 6:08 PM iano has replied
 Message 34 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2006 7:16 PM iano has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 32 of 63 (324525)
06-21-2006 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by iano
06-21-2006 5:20 PM


Re: the subtle difference
..I take it that you didn't lick that idea off a stone.
i don't lick stones. i have some idea of where they've been.
If "When God calls and a person responds to that call then they become a Christian and certain things will manifest themselves..." is true then one might very easily percieve whether another patently hasn't responded to that call. Thus one is in a position to comment, to exercise their judgement. All one has to decide for themselves is, is that statement true - in order to comment.
you fail to see the obvious flaw in your logic. of those "certain things" that manifests itself is compassion and acceptance of others: not condemnation and judgement.
by judging others as not christians, you have defined yourself as unchristian. and, if i were in a position to judge, i would say that you weren't.
but you don't get the point. and neither does faith, apparently. christianity is not about deciding who's wheat and who's chaff, and certainly not about us making that decision. it's about acceptance, and hope, and compassion, and forgiveness, and charity.
the message is nothing but good for all, and if you exclud people from it, you do nothing but pervert it.
I thought it wouldn't be long until your self-declared reading comprehension skills would get hauled out. D'ya ever ask Ned his opinion?
knock yourself out. ned gave his opinion in the last thread -- and to no suprise, you misinterpretted what he said.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 5:20 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 6:29 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 33 of 63 (324532)
06-21-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
06-21-2006 6:08 PM


Re: the subtle difference
you fail to see the obvious flaw in your logic of those "certain things" that manifests itself is compassion and acceptance of others: not condemnation and judgement.
Do you see the obvious flaw in your own logic: this limited notion is printed on the pages of your own book. There is no need to even swap stories: all a person needs to exercise judgement (to judge) is to hold that their own book is correct - it needs not anothers (yours for instance) stamp of approval.
Compassion for one lost, yes. Acceptance that they are lost, yes.
Standing by whilst they fool themselves into thinking they are Christians - compassion forbids it even to the extent of being 'tough'. (aa kind of a pr 26:5 motivation there)
Allowing them them fool others into thinking what they say Christianity is is what Christianity is. Hell no.
if i were in a position to judge, i would say that you weren't.
I'm not so reticent and in your case I don't know. I'm not sure...
the message is nothing but good for all, and if you exclude people from it, you do nothing but pervert it.
Stating that a person is not a Christian doesn't exclude them from a message they haven't gotten yet - if indeed that exercise of judgment is accurate. They would already be on the 'outside' so to speak.
knock yourself out. ned gave his opinion in the last thread -- and to no suprise, you misinterpretted what he said.
I take it that you have no problem in allowing him state whether his message was tongue in cheek or literal. I for one am curious. I'll bump it next time I see him knocking around. You do the same if you see him. Okay?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 6:08 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 7:31 PM iano has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 34 of 63 (324557)
06-21-2006 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by iano
06-21-2006 5:20 PM


my opinion?
Can you point me to what I should be offering an opinion about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 5:20 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 7:33 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 7:38 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 38 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 7:41 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 39 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 7:44 PM NosyNed has replied
 Message 43 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 7:56 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 35 of 63 (324559)
06-21-2006 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by iano
06-21-2006 6:29 PM


Re: the subtle difference
Do you see the obvious flaw in your own logic: this limited notion is printed on the pages of your own book. There is no need to even swap stories: all a person needs to exercise judgement (to judge) is to hold that their own book is correct - it needs not anothers (yours for instance) stamp of approval.
do make circular points in every thread? i'm starting to think that you do it to be funny. considering that my point was circular to begin with. you're just running the other direction.
iano, go play god and create some rocks so big you can't lift them.
Allowing them them fool others into thinking what they say Christianity is is what Christianity is. Hell no.
ahem, i think christ gets some say in what christianity is and is not. and christ says "don't judge." and he rails against the pharisees for excluding people.
if i were in a position to judge, i would say that you weren't.
I'm not so reticent and in your case I don't know. I'm not sure...
the point is, iano, i don't know a damned thing about your relationship with god. nor do you know anything about mine. so i don't get a say in yours, and you don't get a say in mine.
Stating that a person is not a Christian doesn't exclude them from a message they haven't gotten yet - if indeed that exercise of judgment is accurate. They would already be on the 'outside' so to speak.
yes, and the lepers were already outside the temple. they were born there. it was still wrong for the pharisees to not let them in.
knock yourself out. ned gave his opinion in the last thread -- and to no suprise, you misinterpretted what he said.
I take it that you have no problem in allowing him state whether his message was tongue in cheek or literal. I for one am curious. I'll bump it next time I see him knocking around. You do the same if you see him. Okay?
his attention has been called to this thread. feel free to ask him what he meant by
quote:
Ok, I don't see how the contraction can be explained away then.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 6:29 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 36 of 63 (324560)
06-21-2006 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NosyNed
06-21-2006 7:16 PM


Re: my opinion?
A curious situation arose within the context of a recent thread which enabled you (by accident rather than design) to be an objective judge, jury and executioner w.r.t a particular sub-issue within the thread - which spreads beyond the thread and into general discussion between Arach and me. Very unusual at EvC to get something this resolvable.
But it is not mine to call on my own. Arach would have to want to go there too. I'm prepared to risk it in order to have a particular debate approach dismantled (for I find it tiresome). But am quite happy to drop it if Arach doesn't agree
Thanks for looking and not leaping. I'd wait for Arachs o.k.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2006 7:16 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 37 of 63 (324561)
06-21-2006 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NosyNed
06-21-2006 7:16 PM


Re: my opinion?
Can you point me to what I should be offering an opinion about?
yes. starting here
quote:
NosyNed writes:
one says that is better to answer fools because otherwise they don't learn anything. the other says it's better to not answer fools, because you're a fool for answering them.
I don't follow these threads all that closely but it was my feeling that Iano did an pretty good job of explaining away the apparent contradiction.
What I recall is that the prohibition on arguing with a fool was not saying that you don't argue with them but that you don't "stoop to their level". That is what I understood Iano to be saying with his explanation of "according to his foolishness".
Do I misunderstand this? How do you understand it?
quote:
arachnophilia writes:
Do I misunderstand this?
yes, here are the verses in question:
quote:
Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
both contain the phrase in question, so you cannot use it to make a meaningful distinction between them. maybe it has a double meaning -- but iano has not attempted to argue that point at all.
quote:
NosyNed writes:
Oh, I should learn not to jump in with a flawed memory of events. Ok, I don't see how the contraction can be explained away then.
Thanks for the thanks Iano but I think you have to withdraw it now.
i thought your opinion was pretty evident. iano thinks that you still agree with his point, and is somehow failing to understand your retraction on the grounds that he made a false distinction.
in short, iano can't read.
Edited by arachnophilia, : typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2006 7:16 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 38 of 63 (324562)
06-21-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NosyNed
06-21-2006 7:16 PM


Re: my opinion?
A more simple way of phrasing it would be:
I hold that that post was written tongue-in-cheek and Arach holds that it was to be taken literally.
I read it one way and Arach another. Our ability to read is the sub-issue within the thread
Oh yeah.. the post in question:
NosyNed writes: writes:
Oh, I should learn not to jump in with a flawed memory of events. Ok, I don't see how the contraction can be explained away then.
Thanks for the thanks Iano but I think you have to withdraw it now.
Your honour...
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2006 7:16 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 7:48 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 39 of 63 (324563)
06-21-2006 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NosyNed
06-21-2006 7:16 PM


Re: my opinion?
Forgot to mention. You do not have to give a response either. It might not be something you want to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2006 7:16 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2006 8:42 PM iano has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 40 of 63 (324564)
06-21-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by iano
06-21-2006 7:41 PM


iano, you left out the frowny-faces.
those are important.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 7:41 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 7:52 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 41 of 63 (324565)
06-21-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by arachnophilia
06-21-2006 7:48 PM


Ned doesn't strike me as senile Arach. I trust he remembers his intention and is pondering more on the wisdom of commenting than anything else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 7:48 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 7:55 PM iano has not replied
 Message 51 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2006 8:45 PM iano has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 42 of 63 (324567)
06-21-2006 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by iano
06-21-2006 7:52 PM


oh, i'm sure ned remembers. but dishonesy by way of omission is still dishonesty.
besides, he'd have to be really damned senil to not notice the post i made above that contains our conversation in its entirety, including formatting.
I trust he remembers his intention and is pondering more on the wisdom of commenting than anything else.
answer not a fool...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 7:52 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 43 of 63 (324568)
06-21-2006 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NosyNed
06-21-2006 7:16 PM


Re: my opinion?
On reflection Ned. Can we forget it? The result ain't worth it to me, whichever way it would fall. I'd prefer to put up with Arachs debate method. Like it's not that I even have to debate him if I don't want to!
Thanks, sorry for the trouble.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2006 7:16 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 8:00 PM iano has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 44 of 63 (324570)
06-21-2006 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by iano
06-21-2006 7:56 PM


Re: my opinion?
uh huh.
thanks for wasting thread space.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 7:56 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 8:12 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 45 of 63 (324575)
06-21-2006 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by arachnophilia
06-21-2006 8:00 PM


Re: my opinion?
Given that our relative strength in the reading department remains undecided by objective decision (something which you saw the need for as much as me here) can you now halt supposing objective superiority in that self-same department when we debate next?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 8:00 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2006 8:16 PM iano has replied

  
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