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Author | Topic: are christian wives respected? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Since the thread in which I asked this question was closed, I am starting a new thread.
It was finally explained to me by TB that while he could take advice from his wife if he wanted to, he didn't have to, and he was never directed by her. Likewise, she must always follow his direction, and always take his advice. My next question was if he respects her as a person. The larger question is, is it possible to truly respect a person if you ulimately can control them?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But does she HAVE to take your advice and guidence, while you can CHOOSE to take hers or not?
quote: But you have said that when you have a disagreement about some action to take, you and god get together and decide what to do, and she will abide by your descision. That, by definition, means that, even if it's in a small way, you can tell her what to do and she must simply do it. This is what you have explained to me as her role as a good Christian wife, unless you are changing things now. To me, this is not really true respect. Unless she can ALWAYS have the option to say "no" and make it stick if she feels the need to, unless there is never a time when one of you can simply overrule the other, true mutual respect is not possible. Not adult mutual respect, anyway.
quote: Gen 3:16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Peter 3:5For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 2:12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I will make this a kind of uber-reply to satcomm, TB and freaky.
I want you all to know that I am actually trying to understand you all. This is such a foreign notion to me because my marriage has always been a leaderless one. My husband and I are a great partnership and we solve problems together as a team. We have no need for leadership. But what I still haven't had answered, and what is the ultimate crux of my confusion, is this question: How can you both submit to each other in the marriage, yet at the very same time there exists a leader (always the man), and therefore, a follower(always the woman)? If you tell me that you share the burden of descision making and that you are equals, which is actually mostly what you have been sounding like in your rather liberal interpretation of every plain-sounding Bible passage that I provide, then it seems that your "leadership" role is pretty much honerary, like the Queen of England. If it is true that you submit to each other, then who is doing the leading when the leader is submitting, if there is only one leader? If you submit to each other, except when the leader leads, then you aren't really submitting to each other. This is because when the male leader submits or leads (I contend that it is impossible to do both at the same time, but I am waiting for clarification on this), he gets to choose when he does one or the other. The follower is never supposed to lead, so never has the choice to do so. She must always submit if she is to never lead. Maybe my logic is faulty, but I don't think so.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Hey, if my reasoning is so laughable, then why didn't you demolish it with your apparently much superior reasoning in the first place instead of slinging juvenile insults?
quote: Oh, yes, you could enlighten me, but you aren't going to. Something about your first and only response makes me doubt that that you have much ability to enlighen anyone.
quote: Apology accepted, although why would it be so terrifying for someone to be a "butch", as you say? Why do you fear them?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I have found the discussion a good one too, Freaky, and I thank you for sticking with it and I can tell you are doing your best to help me understand.
I also have the same questions about your response that others have had; why is it automatically assumed that the husband, in all cases, must perform this role of leading? I understand your wanting to expand the definition of "leadership" in your version of a Christian marriage to be that of "leading by example". I don't have an objection to this, per se. However, you also said;
quote: You still haven't explained to me how you can submit and lead at the same time. You still haven't explained to me how one can have a leader and not, therefore, even in a small way, tell the followers what to do. You still haven't told me why you, as the man and the leader, get the option of taking advice or not, but your wife, being the follower, does not have that option and must always follow your direction. IOW, she has no choice.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
OK, this is for those who believe that the man should be the leader of their Christian marriage;
Can you forbid your wife from doing something? Can she forbid you from doing something?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
OK, but I thought that the wife was not supposed to lead the husband. If the husband is forbidden from doing something by the wife, is she not leading him at that time?
Oh, and I am not talking about things that are specifically mentioned in, say, the 10 commandments, or in your marriage vows. I am talking about things like forbidding the wife to wear a certain lenght of skirt, or maybe forbidding her from reading certain books, or something like that.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
A: OK, but I thought that the wife was not supposed to lead the husband. If the husband is forbidden from doing something by the wife, is she not leading him at that time?
quote: It seems like she is doing the exact same thing as you do when you are leading her, except that you don't want to think of it as leadership, but as "taking advice". This seems to mean that if she had a different interpretation of the Bible than you, or if you think she is wrong, then you could pretty much declare her wrong or mistaken and that would be the end of it. I am not saying this is what you have done or even would do, but, in your arrangement, you technically could, correct?
quote: But what happens when you think you are right and she thinks you aren't? Do you always get to decide who is right? A: Oh, and I am not talking about things that are specifically mentioned in, say, the 10 commandments, or in your marriage vows.
quote: A: I am talking about things like forbidding the wife to wear a certain lenght of skirt, or maybe forbidding her from reading certain books, or something like that.
quote: No, I mean bigger things that where to keep the toothpaste. I mean things like could you forbid your wife from reading a book that you thought she shouldn't, or could you forbid her from associating with her friend because you thought that friend was bad for her? Could you forbid your wife from working if you wanted to?
quote: Collaborative, equal descision making I am in support of, naturally.
quote: So, if I am interpreting you correctly, you seem to be saying that you feel that you are better at interpreting the Bible than your wife. One could also interpret your statements as implying that your wife (all Christian wives?) are, by the unfortunate event of being born female, are not capable of or worthy of interpreting what God wants you both to do. It might be understood that wives would lead the family into ruin if they were to lead the family, bad things could happen if the family was run democratically, without a single male leader. I am very interested in what happens when, atypically, your wife doesn't respect your final descision. Here's what I think I understand about your views on your marriage:1. You have a leadership role in your marriage, and this is a real leadership role, not some honorary title or just your seat at the dinner table. 2. In most situations, you and your wife exchange ideas and opinions, and come to decisions together. 3. In some subset of issues/decisions/etc., you (the man) have some power and authority that your wife does not have. What is this power? What exactly is the power that the man has that the woman does not? That "you lead" doesn't tell me much.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The president may choose to take advice or not, though, where the advisors have to abide by what the president decides. Would you agree then that the president has power over his advisors in their relationship?
quote: Then why the need for your male leadership in Biblical matters if the interpretations are identical? A: I am not saying this is what you have done or even would do, but, in your arrangement, you technically could, correct?
quote: So...hypothetically, if you and your wife disagreed upon what the message of a particular passage in the Bible directed you both to do, you would be the final arbiter, correct? It might not have happened yet, but I am talking about the potential disagreement and what you would do. What are your available options and what are your wife's available options in this situation? A: But what happens when you think you are right and she thinks you aren't? Do you always get to decide who is right?
quote: OK, now I'm confused. I thought you said that you are the one, not your wife, who's job it is to keep your marriage on a Biblical track, so it's you who gets out the Bible to look for guidence, correct? If it's you who is deciding what to do, based upon the Bible, then it seems like you are the one having the Word revealed to you.
quote: What my original question was, could you forbid your wife to do something, not "do you currently have reason to" forbid her to do something. Do you have the power to do this in your marriage, and does she have the power to forbid you to forbid you from doing something?
quote: But I still don't know what that actually means. If there is a leader, doesn't that mean there has to be a follower? Don't leaders, by definition, have some power to tell the followers what to do? (Man, I almost wish we were back in the days where Fundamentalist Christian men could come right out and say, "Damn straight, I'm the king of my castle! Nothing happens in this house that I don't approve first, and my say is the final say! I know how to keep my woman under control!" It would be more straightforward to deal with this compared to all of this vague; "I'm the leader but I also submit," and "My wife and I discuss everything and agree on everything and she has just as much ability to interpret the Word, but I still need to be the leader for reasons I can't explain." business.)
quote: Such as...? Better be careful with those testable claims...
quote: I can't wait to hear what the justification and evidence is for this claim!
quote: Just because you like your views does not mean they are right. Lots of people like discrimination on the basis of race as well as gender. How are they different, in your eyes? A: I am very interested in what happens when, atypically, your wife doesn't respect your final descision
quote: Um, don't you think she might not be disagreeing because you, as the leader, could just shoot her down anyway? It seems pretty clear that she and you have been trained that she should be submissive and not disagree if she wants to be a good Christian woman. You know; she shouldn't be "uppity" and start getting ideas of her own. I mean that last sentence only half-jokingly.
quote: If there is a leader, there is a follower. This is, by definition, a power imbalance. It doesn't matter how many times you say it isn't. It is, unless you would like to explain to me how it isn't logical to conclude this. A leader has more power than a follower, by definition. Oh, and what are these "established differences" between male and female which makes all of them followers in their families?
quote: Logic would tend to portray it that way, too. Leadership entails telling people what they can or cannot do, correct? This means that for you to always be a leader in your marriage, you can always have the option of telling your wife what she can or cannot do, correct? If she never disagrees with you, is that because she knows she can't win even if she does disagree, so there is no point in doing so? Has she been taught that being submissive to your leadership is her role? Being taught to not want equality in a marriage would qualify as oppression in my opinion, just as teaching black people that they don't want to vote is oppression.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
For the most part, I agree with your analysis of my words. You are right about them not needing any evidence or justification about how they wish to run their individual lives.
I do think that Satcomm needs to Biblically support his idea that women are not suited to be spiritual leaders, however. It would seem that this is a clear indication that his religion feels that women are inferior to men, spiritually. I disagree with your last comment:
quote: There are many accounts of ex-slaves and also people in the former Soviet Union after the collapse saying that they felt that their lives were worse after they got their freedom, because life was more of a struggle. I never said that there was nothing at all attractive about the kind of submissive, passive role that these Christians are advocating for the women. It is certainly easier in a lot of ways to not be ultimately responsible for certain important things in the marriage. I can see how it is a lot easier to allow yourself to be told what to do. I can also see how feeling "taken care of" all the time by your husband would be a plus for many women. Men would obviously get a lot of satisfaction out of leading the family bacause it is a feeling of power and responsibility. In general, though, I don't think that convincing women that leadership roles are not appropriate for them for the sole reason of their gender is a good thing to do. I mean, if a woman is a devout Christian and has been taught all of her life that the way she could serve God the best was to be submissive to her husband and to not aspire to lead a church, how comfortable do you think she is going to be in any leadership role outside her home and church life, especially if she has to lead any men? I imagine that it is often more difficult and more of a struggle to work things out between two partners in a leaderless, egalitarian marriage compared to one in which there is a leader and a follower. Similarly, it is a lot more difficult to decide what to do in a successful democracy than it is to decide what to do in a dictatorship.
quote: I am not saying that she does. I am simply trying to understand the reasoning and internal logic, so to speak, of this arrangement. I want to understand the paradoxes that are told to me by all of these men repeatedly; "I am the leader, yet I submit. My wife is free to disagree with me, but I make the descisions. She can forbid me from doing something, but she does not lead me. I am the spiritual leader, yet my wife is just as capable of receiving God's message as I am." I also originally started talking about this in response to Tranquility Base's assertion that this "man as leader, woman as follower" marriage model was the best, most successful way to arrange a marriage. I cited divorce statistics which said that several Christian groups which promote this arrangement actually have higher than average divorce rates. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-20-2003]
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I never said that anyone was forced to submit. I do think, however, when a girl is brought up her whole life being taught to submit, and that it was God's will that she do so, and that she would be considered a bad Christian wife if she didn't submit to the leadership of her husband, it doesn't often have to get to the point of "forcing". The girl is trained to want to submit long before she ever gets married.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The problem as I see it is not that their arrangement is faith-based and illogical. The problem seems to me to be that they want to have their cake and eat it too; they want it to be faith based and considered logical. Otherwise, they would not have tried so hard to explain things in a logical manner to me.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Quite surprising indeed. Tell me, would you say she had a strict upbringing?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
To me this is more of an honesty issue than a logical one.
If they would just admit that they think that women should be submissive to them because they are the man and the men should lead the marriage and also have power that the women don't, instead of trying to make it appear as something else, I would accept that. I wouldn't respect it, but I would accept it. Instead it seems to me as though they are dressing up the same old male dominance as a "kinder, gentler dominance" in order to make it more palatable to themselves. This is where the crazy illogic comes in. Either that, or they actually have an egalitarian marriage and they only think they are the leaders because their wives let them think that.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Then explain to me how you can submit and lead at the same time. Explain to me how a leader does not have some kind of power that a follower does not. Explain to me how having unequal power in the marriage is not, at some level, dominance and submission, even if the participants agree to the arrangement. I am sorry that my conclusion makes you uncomfortable, but the fact that I have repeatedly asked these questions about the nature of the claims you and others have made without getting any answers leads me to the idea that you just choose to live without addressing the glaring logical contradictions.
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