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Author Topic:   YEC Problem with Science Above and Beyond Evolution
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4 of 312 (318178)
06-05-2006 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by hitchy
06-05-2006 11:20 PM


sorry, my mistake
deleted. Sorry. Realized I don't want to get into this discussion.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 9 of 312 (324941)
06-22-2006 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
06-03-2006 11:41 PM


Some YEC answers off the top of my head
Geosciences:
Historical Geology - geologic eras and periods of Earth's history as commonly defined would require considerable contraction.
Certainly would. As presently constructed they are all false.
Sedimentary Geology - principles concerning sedimentary layering, deposition rates, uniformitarianism, and age of formations would all have to be revised.
Totally. Completely false as it stands.
Structural Geology - events concerning large scale deformation would have to be retimed and speeded up.
Absolutely. Times are WAY too slow. No need for them to be so slow.
Paleontology - ages of fossils would require recalibration, current evolutionary relationships would be nonexistant.
That is for sure.
Tectonics - would require continents to move at extraordinary speed, then slow to historically observed rates.
That is so. Current notions need a lot of rethinking.
Volcanism - no volcanoes prior to 6000 yrs ago would indicate massive simultaneous eruptions.
Yes. Underwater volcanoes first. The most likely origin of volcanoes was the breaching of the ocean floor as part of the great Flood.
Paleomagnetism - would require massive revision of observed change in polarity of Earth to fit 6,000 year timeline.
Could be.
Dendritics - tree rings would have to be recounted and model of annual growth changed to fit in with young Earth, also applies to varves and ice cores.
Certainly.
Geochemistry - role of isotopes in geologic dating would require massive change in model.
Yes. There can be no verification that the rate of decay holds up before the Flood.
Hydrology - ages of water in confined subsurface aquifers would require revision to fit 6K Earth.
Yes. They are certainly left from the Flood.
Models concerning hydraulic conductivity and recharge rates would require significant revision.
I wouldn't know.
Geophysics - various models of formation and age of Earth would require massive revision. Even heat dispersion as outlined by Kelvin would need revision to fit YEC.
Not sure if this is so.
Minerology - only area of geology unaffected by YEC (so far as I know at moment)
And the effects mentioned above do not affect the daily work of any of those sciences either. It's all superimposed theory, nothing that affects practical science.
Physics:
Nuclear - models of decay would require massive revision due to age of half-lives (see geochemistry).
Rates of decay can't be assumed past a certain age range. Problem of uniformitarian presupposition.
Cosmology - entire universe would have to be contracted to 6,000 year radius to fit in with Genesis account of creation and observed speed of light. Hypothesis of stellar formation, distances, evolution, would be revised. Galaxies must all fit in with young age. Background radiation from singularity event would have to be reexplained.
Possibly. I don't know. Could be that science can just go on hypothesizing in this realm as it does, since there is no way to do anything different. Just have the humility to suppose it could all be wrong. Pray a lot.
Particle - Proton decay models out.
I wouldn't know.
Atmospheric - climate models including ice core data would require revision.
Yes. Needs rethinking.
Chemistry:
Isotope decay models would be massively revised. see geochemistry
I think this is the third time this same thing has come up. So see above comments.
Biosciences
Central model of evolution would have to be discarded. Results would be too many for me to list, will defer to experts.
Absolutely, evolution has to go.
{this is really outside of my area, please contribute as see fit}
Anthropology
Physical - since human evolution would be out, whole field gone.
And good riddance.
Cultural - see linguistics.
It's all a bunch of wild conjecture anyway.
Archeology - all models and interpretations concerning digs older than 6,000 years would require revision.
Absolutely. Obviously wrong time frame.
Linguistics
Models of language development, dispersal, and evolution would require revision to fit in with Tower of Babel.
Yes. There is only the most artificial reason, based purely on evo assumptions, to construct any other notion of language.
Also history that goes too far back would require rewriting. Accounts of early history of Chinese, Indus Valley, Mesoamerica, Sumeria, Egypt, etc. would require rewriting. Oral history of Australian Aborigonies going back 40-50,000 years would have to be discarded.
You betcha.
I'm sure I left out a lot, so should this topic be promoted, would like to hear about other areas for purposes of learning. Also, I would like to hear from the YECs to explain how such an orientation would have little or no effect on these subjects.
I don't see that these changes are that enormous. The mountains of data are not affected, only the interpretive scheme.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : added title, corrected quote box inclusion.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 35 by fallacycop, posted 06-23-2006 3:00 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 312 (325006)
06-22-2006 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Heathen
06-22-2006 6:15 PM


Re: Some YEC answers off the top of my head
can I ask you something that Iano has declined to answer?
You believe.. or 'know' that scientists for the last couple of hundred years (and maybe longer) have got it wrong with respect to the subjects listed in the OP.
Only with respect to the EVOLUTIONIST ASPECTS OF THOSE subjects, which are delineated in the OP. I still say that doesn't appreciably affect workaday science.
Scientific method does work, in a way that keeps fallen intellect honest too, but it isn't even applied to evolutionism. It can't be. There are no definitive tests or verifications possible, it's mostly speculation, often sheer fantasy, and I know everybody thinks I'm nuts for saying that but it's true. I've said all I know how to say on that subject.
This is because of their (our) Fallen nature, and resulting inability to see what is truth. have I got that right?
Well, I suppose so, but I think fallen nature COULD get it righter except for the stubbornness and arrogance that dismisses the Bible as a mere ancient myth written by pre-scientific humans. And also because of the imperviousness of evolution theory itself to scientific method or indeed any rational means of investigation.
What, then, make you so sure that your ability to discern the truth (ie your interpretation of the bible) is not also fallible?
Because I don't trust in myself, I trust in the collected wisdom of the church over the millennia and I know I'm in accord with a majority of traditionalist interpreters from a variety of denominations. I've read a lot for a non-seminarian. I also don't expect to be totally right, just mostly right. And I trust in God. I know when I'm led by the Holy Spirit. That part is too subjective for you I'm sure, but I pray for guidance on many of my postings here and I often surprise myself with my own understanding. That's got to be because it's from God, not from me.
Could it be that your fallen nature has clouded your judgement with regard to a Y.E. scenario?
The YEC scenario is based strictly on Genesis. Genesis is regarded as history by conservative traditional Bible interpreters, and it reads like history to my reading. I see no cause in the text itself to read it any other way. It's not that theoretically I couldn't be misreading it somehow, it's that I have considered and reconsidered it and I do not see that I am misreading it, and I'm in accord with conservative Bible scholars. It reads quite straightforwardly it seems to me. Those who inject billions of years into it seem to me to be forcing it to fit their own preconceptions. I see no room there for billions of years. Those who turn it into a parable have not a shred of justification that I can see. They are certainly imposing it on the text from some preconceived belief they acquired elsewhere. Beyond that I've read Bible interpretations here at evc that just hit me as whimsically bizarre and totally irrationl. I believe what I believe because I'm convinced it's true and based on good reason too.
Could it be that God has equiped us with scientific minds, intelligent enough to investigate, and experiment, and enquire and challenge so that we may overcome the disability with which God has burdened us as a result of Adam's actions all those years ago?
Not according to the Bible.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 312 (325015)
06-22-2006 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by subbie
06-22-2006 7:44 PM


Re: "Workaday science"
My opinion is based on reading, much of it at evc.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 312 (325016)
06-22-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by subbie
06-22-2006 7:44 PM


Re: "Workaday science"
My opinion is based on evo theory, not experience. If you think that isn't sufficient, you don't get what I'm saying.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 312 (325020)
06-22-2006 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by subbie
06-22-2006 7:56 PM


Re: "Workaday science"
You can do most science without evolution theory. Collecting facts and data and constructing hypotheses of the testable kind is not affected.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 312 (325024)
06-22-2006 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by arachnophilia
06-22-2006 8:12 PM


Re: a specific example
What a bunch of nonsense. Don't bother me with such stuff.
I've affirmed the law of superposition many times. Of COURSE the layers were not laid down "simultaneously."
Don't be an idiot.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 312 (325131)
06-23-2006 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by subbie
06-22-2006 9:20 PM


Re: "Workaday science"
You demonstrate a deeply flawed understanding of science of you truly believe that it wouldn't make any difference.
I don't mean to say that it wouldn't make ANY difference, just that it wouldn't bring science to a grinding halt. Facts are facts, data is data. Daily work on that level would continue it seems to me.
If it is more of a big deal than that, then, please, you explain how it is. This thread isn't going to go anywhere interrogating me. I gave my YEC point of view, largely agreeing with the OP presentation. I don't argue science. That's not my angle on this. There's no point in haranguing me on that level.
So if my understanding is so deeply flawed, kindly specifically describe just how the everyday work done by scientists would change.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 312 (325146)
06-23-2006 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by arachnophilia
06-23-2006 2:25 AM


Re: suggestion
I don't want to duke it out with anyone. I simply don't want to be interrogated. I'd like to see the scientists give their descriptions about how science would be affected by the YEC assumptions. And in particular by the shortened time factor of Earth. Subbie gave a rough description. I don't have any interest in duking anything out with him. He gave a good example. I think I'll leave it at that. The shortened time factor shouldn't have so many consequences.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 312 (325153)
06-23-2006 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by fallacycop
06-23-2006 3:00 AM


Re: Some YEC answers off the top of my head
Please tell us exactly how you believe the change would affect science, or a particular science.
{Edit: I mean the daily work of the scientist, the dealing with data and facts. How does not assuming the evolutionary time table affect that?)
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 38 of 312 (325155)
06-23-2006 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by arachnophilia
06-23-2006 3:09 AM


Re: suggestion
He said how a different understanding of how atoms decay would affect physics. If he wants to elaborate further, fine.
I'd like to hear how the shortened time factor would affect science myself.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 40 of 312 (325167)
06-23-2006 3:55 AM


I would like to hear how the shortened time frame to 6000 years would affect the everyday work of the earth scientists, the geologists, the biologists. Exactly what would have to change in the work they actually do every day.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 312 (325280)
06-23-2006 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by deerbreh
06-23-2006 10:33 AM


I will give you one answer. I am darn glad the people who plan how to handle radioactive waste are following an old earth geological understanding of time rather than a YEC time frame. Because if they were to calibrate the radioactive decay clocks to YEC time, they would be off by many years on how long it is going to take for radioactive isotopes to decay to a stable (and safe) form.
If you're going to talk to me about radioactive decay you're going to have to explain what you're talking about. Just asserting that this would be the case means nothing to me. There isn't any "YEC time" that I know of. The idea is that there could have been conditions on Earth in the past that would change the currently assumed rate of decay, so that you can't assume a steady rate over thousands, let alone millions of years. That doesn't change the basic rate of decay under current conditions.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 48 of 312 (325288)
06-23-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by nwr
06-23-2006 10:58 AM


Could we focus on WORKADAY science?
The YEC scenario of rapid movement of continents after the flood, is incompatible with the principle of conservation of energy.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was really hoping to get away from the usual speculative notions about what would supposedly have happened in the past. That's standard anti-creationist debate.
What I'd really like to know is how the YEC assumptions would affect DAILY SCIENTIFIC WORK, the stuff scientists go to the "office" to do every day, or the lab or the field or whatever.
================================
{Edit for more specificity:
The conservation of energy is a central principle of physics. It is used everyday by scientists, when doing basic scientific computations. It is involved in the operations of your air conditioner and your automobile.
YECs do not challenge any basic principles of science such as the conservation of energy.
The YEC scenario of rapid movement of continents after the flood, is incompatible with the principle of conservation of energy. For, if conservation held at that time, the amount of energy released by such rapid tectonic activity would have destroyed life on earth with no need for a flood. And Noah would not have been left around to report on it.
There is no way to know for sure what conditions prevailed at the time so all this is wild speculation. This is not the same thing as YECs supposedly challenging a fundamental law of science. This is your own speculations doing the challenging.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 312 (325293)
06-23-2006 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by subbie
06-23-2006 2:10 AM


Re: "Workaday science"
Every scientific discipline has certain basics that have been established over the years. These basics form the foundation of all work that is being done in the various disciplines. To take an example from the OP, one of the foundations of nuclear physics is our understanding and theories about how atoms decay. Virtually everything we think we know about the atom would need to be tossed out if we abandon our understanding of atomic decay.
After a night's sleep I can follow this better than I did last night. As I just posted to somebody, I don't see why anything has to be tossed. All YEC says that I'm aware of is that you can't assume that conditions have always been the same on this planet so that the rate of decay has always been the same. It's a matter of considering the possibility of different conditions in the past, not altering fundamental knowledge about the atom.
Also, you are writing theoretically, not answering the request to describe how daily practical scientific work would change. Maybe that's not particularly relevant for this topic, I don't know, but my contention wasn't that science wouldn't be changed in various ways, but that the everyday work of science shouldn't change much, the idea being that everyday lab work or field work is not particularly dependent on the overarching theory of evolution -- or the related Old Earth theory.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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