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Author Topic:   Do animals have souls?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 166 of 303 (325171)
06-23-2006 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-22-2006 1:40 PM


rape?
Rape happens all the time in all species.
Huh? Females take care of themselves against predatory males just fine in most species I'm aware of. Give them a good swat across the puss if necessary, fangs, claws and all. Also there is not even any sexual possibility until the animal is in heat. What are you talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-22-2006 1:40 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by crashfrog, posted 06-23-2006 8:52 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 167 of 303 (325173)
06-23-2006 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-22-2006 1:40 PM


rape?
Rape happens all the time in all species.
Huh? Females take care of themselves against predatory males just fine in most species I'm aware of. Give them a good swat across the puss if necessary, fangs, claws and all. Also there is not even any sexual possibility until the animal is in heat. What are you talking about?
But I just happened to blunder into this conversation and saw that statement so if I'm out of context, sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-22-2006 1:40 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by deerbreh, posted 06-23-2006 10:08 AM Faith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 168 of 303 (325226)
06-23-2006 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
06-23-2006 4:15 AM


Re: rape?
Females take care of themselves against predatory males just fine in most species I'm aware of. Give them a good swat across the puss if necessary, fangs, claws and all.
When dragonflies and damselflies mate, my entomologist wife tells me, the male uses his penis to punch a hole through the back of the female's head, impaling and permanently immobilizing her while he deposits his sperm.
When the deed is done, the male holds the female under water until she drowns, because the female releases more of her eggs in death. Plus, she's prevented the opportunity to mate with another male (though it wouldn't be clear how, even without the drowning, she could possibly survive another act of copulation.)
In other words I think the scope of animal copulatory behaviors is significantly wider than you suggest, and while "rape" may not have much meaning in regards to organisms that are "programmed" to mate in these fashions, it definately includes species where female mate choice is suborned by the male physically overpowering the female.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 4:15 AM Faith has not replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 169 of 303 (325244)
06-23-2006 9:58 AM


Well if feeling shame/guilt is indicative of having a soul my dog has a soul. He can put on a real sad sack show when he knows he has done something wrong - like pooping all over the rug.

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 170 of 303 (325245)
06-23-2006 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
06-23-2006 4:17 AM


Re: rape?
Rat rape, including gang rape by juvenile male rats, is well documented under crowded conditions. I don't have a citation but I recall it from my freshman psychology class (too long ago to contemplate so my memory may be a little fuzzy).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 4:17 AM Faith has not replied

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 Message 171 by ramoss, posted 06-23-2006 11:45 AM deerbreh has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 171 of 303 (325304)
06-23-2006 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by deerbreh
06-23-2006 10:08 AM


Re: rape?
So is dolphin rape. A pair of males sometimes will corral a young female and cut her off from all other males for when she comes into estress.
Similar behavior can be found in some chimp tribes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by deerbreh, posted 06-23-2006 10:08 AM deerbreh has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 172 of 303 (325313)
06-23-2006 11:52 AM


I have watched Male mallard ducks gang up and relentlessly hound a female until she has been humped to exhaustion and drowned. This is a relatively common occurance
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by RickJB, posted 06-23-2006 12:41 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 173 of 303 (325336)
06-23-2006 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-23-2006 11:52 AM


Hey 2ice,
My reply to your last comment is at post 165.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-23-2006 11:52 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 174 of 303 (325366)
06-23-2006 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-22-2006 10:40 PM


What is "I" The concept of "I" is equally as non essential as both free will and soul.
Not really, I think the noun is what your looking for:
I Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Self Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
What is an explanation for the mechanism of this interaction taking place?
I dont know what that means.
I am trying to understand what I am experiencing.
You cant. You can only experience your understanding - I'm sorry if that was a bit poetic, I'll explain - in order to understand something you must experience it (there is no, as far as I know an understanding of the world independent of experience) therefore by trying to understand something (by experiencing it) you inevitably affect it and thus recive an "incorrect" (very tentatively) understanding of it.
I understand the links the interaction led to. However they are from other interactions. I am interested in understanding this one and the nature of what it is.
This is very vague...try to focus on one aspect and choose your words as they are defined - or else I will not know what you mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-22-2006 10:40 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-23-2006 3:11 PM kalimero has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 175 of 303 (325406)
06-23-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by kalimero
06-23-2006 1:53 PM


Actually, these emotions (Curiousity, Wonder, Greed, Hate ect.) are an essential part of the survival of social creatures like us - maybe not as basic as a heart - but still essential. The ability to interact with other individuals is crucial for survival.
I dont think he meant that a soul is not essential for our survival, but that the concept of a soul is not essential in order to explain things such as emotion and conscience - I tend to agree.
Not really, I think the noun is what your looking for:
The concept of "I" as "self" is also not neccessary as soul or free will.
I dont know what that means.
What is this I am experiencing?
You cant. You can only experience your understanding - I'm sorry if that was a bit poetic, I'll explain - in order to understand something you must experience it (there is no, as far as I know an understanding of the world independent of experience) therefore by trying to understand something (by experiencing it) you inevitably affect it and thus recive an "incorrect" (very tentatively) understanding of it.
The nature of this experience is very unclear. I am apparently interacting with myself.
This is very vague...try to focus on one aspect and choose your words as they are defined - or else I will not know what you mean.
The experienced has led me to links. I am attempting to understand the nature of what I am interacting with. This is still unclear to me.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by kalimero, posted 06-23-2006 1:53 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by kalimero, posted 06-24-2006 6:42 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 176 of 303 (325599)
06-24-2006 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-23-2006 3:11 PM


The concept of "I" as "self" is also not neccessary as soul or free will.
Assertions.Please provide the logic behind it.
As I see it the sense of self is crucial in order to understand the relationships between yourself and the outside world, enabling you to consiencly change your actions in order to better your life and thus survive and procreate and pass on you "self-conscience"-genes.
What is this I am experiencing?
As I stated - you can only answer this question by experiencing the world - because thats really the only tool you have (AKA science).
The nature of this experience is very unclear.
I'm not sure what you mean by "unclear".
I am apparently interacting with myself
You cant interact with yourself (maybe you can intraact ) . The only thing you can do is derive the properties of what you are perceiving through honest (I'll explain) interaction.
Whet I say honest I dont mean 'without bias', I mean with minimal bias.
The experienced has led me to links.
very vague.
I am attempting to understand the nature of what I am interacting with.
I dont understand what you mean by 'nature' here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-23-2006 3:11 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-24-2006 1:35 PM kalimero has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 177 of 303 (325685)
06-24-2006 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by kalimero
06-24-2006 6:42 AM


I am trying to understand what a kalimero is.
I am very unclear on this. The nature of the experience of kalimero has not made itself clear to me. Anything I have encountered has been quite vague.
You cant interact with yourself
I am interacting with myself now.
As I stated - you can only answer this question by experiencing the world - because thats really the only tool you have.
(AKA science).
science defines all experience? What a foolish thought. I have disreguarded this notion.
Assertions.Please provide the logic behind it.
Applies this thought directly to the experience below.
As I see it the sense of self is crucial in order to understand the relationships between yourself and the outside world, enabling you to consiencly change your actions in order to better your life and thus survive and procreate and pass on you "self-conscience"-genes.
I am experiencing genes. I see no reason for the concept of "I" or "self" to explain genes.
I am a soul having an encounter with kalimero genes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by kalimero, posted 06-24-2006 6:42 AM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ramoss, posted 06-24-2006 2:13 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 179 by kalimero, posted 06-25-2006 2:52 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 178 of 303 (325705)
06-24-2006 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-24-2006 1:35 PM


I am experiencing genes. I see no reason for the concept of "I" or "self" to explain genes.
I am a soul having an encounter with kalimero gene
Of course, that all depends on what a 'soul' is.
I would say that 'YOU' are a bunch of neurons that form the shape of an analog computer that is having an encounter with another analog computer that has the designation of "Kalimero".
Edited by AdminPD, : Fix quote box

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-24-2006 1:35 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-26-2006 3:45 AM ramoss has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 179 of 303 (326026)
06-25-2006 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-24-2006 1:35 PM


This is kalimero - or as he is in france "calimero"
I am very unclear on this. The nature of the experience of kalimero has not made itself clear to me. Anything I have encountered has been quite vague.
Your not making any sense.
I am interacting with myself now.
Thats not even an arguement.
science defines all experience? What a foolish thought. I have disreguarded this notion.
What does that mean?!? All I said was that the exploration of the world aroud you and a logical derivation of how it works through this exploration is called science.
I am experiencing genes.
You cant experience genes (unless under a microscope) - you can experience their expressions, which are not nesseserily influenced completely by the genes. What you experience is a combination of many different influences.
I see no reason for the concept of "I" or "self" to explain genes.
It doesnt have to. Though I see no reason why genes cant explain "self".
I am a soul having an encounter with kalimero genes.
What a foolish thought.
Really?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-24-2006 1:35 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Ben!, posted 06-25-2006 6:27 AM kalimero has replied
 Message 182 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-26-2006 3:38 AM kalimero has replied

Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 180 of 303 (326034)
06-25-2006 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by kalimero
06-25-2006 2:52 AM


I am experiencing genes.
You cant experience genes (unless under a microscope) - you can experience their expressions, which are not nesseserily influenced completely by the genes. What you experience is a combination of many different influences.
What is the fundamental difference between seeing genes under a microscope and "experiencing their expressions"? In either one, the "experience" of genes is mediated by levels and levels of other interactions--in the seeing case, it is the interaction of the genes with light, the interaction fo the light with glass, the interaction of the light with the lens in your eye and the interaction of that light with the photoreceptive cells in your retina. Which interact with the ganglion cells in your eye, which interact with the LGN in your midbrain (did I miss a step there?), which interact with multiple subsystem, etc, etc.
For those who believe in materialism, I think the type of argument you present is bogus. I think you're going to have a hard time making distinctions like "I" and "experiencing" in the way you're trying to do. Those are dualist concepts as far as I can see, and only work in that paradigm.
I see no reason for the concept of "I" or "self" to explain genes.
It doesnt have to. Though I see no reason why genes cant explain "self".
I see a reason why: genes are too low-level to adequately explain "self", just like quantum electrodynamics is too low-level to adequately explain the motion of grasses when a wind blows through a plain.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by kalimero, posted 06-25-2006 2:52 AM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
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