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Author Topic:   YEC Problem with Science Above and Beyond Evolution
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 91 of 312 (325407)
06-23-2006 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
06-23-2006 2:48 PM


Re: Where does the Censorship End ?
The topic of the thread isn't whether the ToE is of use. (And by the way Population Genetics is a big part of the ToE, so if you really mean to discuss the value of the ToE you can't exclude it, as you attempted to do).
From the OP Message 1
I would like to use this post to determine what parts of science disagree with the YEC belief and therefore would be impacted under a YEC -only educational and research orientation. I would also like to know what would then be left of the sciences after going through the filter of YEC.
Before accusing others of going off-topic, you might at least look back to the OP to see what the topic is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 2:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:19 PM PaulK has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 92 of 312 (325408)
06-23-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by arachnophilia
06-23-2006 2:06 PM


Semantics
i think we're running into a problem here. you seem to have a different definition of "evolution" than everybody else.
for instance, the yec objection to evolution extended to all of fields in the op, but not basic "workaday" "micro" evolution. whereas the scientific definition is precisely what you are calling "micro" evolution -- science makes no distinction here.
Which is why I made a point of identifying it as MICRO, so that it could be clearly recognized that YEC's have no problem with it. I would think that this much of YEC thinking would by now be familiar at EvC but it seems to need to be argued out every time. It has been argued out over and over and over here, so why isn't it at least anticipated that according to YECs, what is called evolution, meaning macroevolution, just plain isn't?
perhaps what you mean is theory of evolution as it relates to common ancestry, and the history of the tree of life? as well as, well, geoscience in general? perhaps it would suit the debate better if you gave your definition of evolution, and the scientists gave theirs. at least then we'd know how we're using the terms.
I know there is a definitional problem here somewhere but none of the above solves it for me. By now it seems to me it ought to be somewhat known what YECs believe, and I have no idea how to approach the semantic problem. It surprises me that it continues to exist after all the discussion. It's of a piece with the fact that most of the anti-YEC thinking is straw man arguments though.
There may also be a problem stemming from other threads supposedly arguing with YECs who aren't following this line I'm following.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2006 2:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 93 of 312 (325410)
06-23-2006 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by PaulK
06-23-2006 3:13 PM


Re: Where does the Censorship End ?
You can take up any part of the OP you like. But I'm trying to focus on this part, which is certainly very relevant to the OP, as it focuses on the YEC claim that science would not be much affected by switching to the YEC view. Showing that the ToE really has very little to do, if anything, with most practical science, is certainly very relevant to this claim.
I really don't want to discuss other aspects of the problem, but of course you may raise them with whomever you like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2006 3:13 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 06-23-2006 3:24 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2006 3:31 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 312 (325414)
06-23-2006 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
06-23-2006 3:19 PM


I see that you have moved on
but to continue the topic of this thread we really need some information. Can you answer the questions originally asked in Message 57 and that have been repeated at least five times since then, particularly in Message 78?
If you are abandoning the idea or YEC, that is fine. If not, could you please answer the questions so that we can proceed?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:19 PM Faith has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 95 of 312 (325415)
06-23-2006 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
06-23-2006 3:03 PM


Re: An analogy
One thing at a time please. It's a big deal to get across to anyone that science really is not dependent on the ToE as you all think. It can only confuse matters to get all caught up in the whole other frame of reference of YEC.
Well, since the OP referred to YEC, and not just ToE, I am taking one thing at a time, the topic. The point of the OP is that YEC impacts a whole lot more than just the ToE, and I think that's a very important point to be made.
I think I've proved that Quetzal's work has nothing to do with the ToE....
You're entitled to think anything you like, but all you did was state that it doesn't. Quetzal says that it does, and, no offense intended, but I'm going to give him a lot more credit for knowing what he does on a daily basis that I am going to give you.
I would suggest instead that you try to understand what I am saying.
You can believe me or not, I really couldn't care less, but I am considering what you say. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm considering more deeply than you are. I'm considering not only the meaning of the words that you use, and the possibility that you in fact might be correct, but I'm also considering the impact, the consequences, if what you are saying is true. On the other hand, unless you've had a major shift in your world view, I'm pretty sure you're not even considering the possibility that what I am saying, along with many others, could be true. It conflicts with your interpretation of the bible, a minority interpretation, by the way, and therefore so you dismiss it as a possibility. Am I right about that?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:41 PM subbie has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 96 of 312 (325418)
06-23-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
06-23-2006 3:19 PM


Re: Where does the Censorship End ?
Yes, I'm so welcome to discuss it that you accuse me of adding nothing to the topic and of making an off-topic post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:37 PM PaulK has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 97 of 312 (325419)
06-23-2006 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by PaulK
06-23-2006 3:31 PM


Re: Where does the Censorship End ?
Sorry if I was out of line. I'm trying hard to keep my own focus and don't want anything to knock me off it. I just want to keep on this tack right now and don't want to talk about YEC.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2006 3:31 PM PaulK has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 98 of 312 (325420)
06-23-2006 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by subbie
06-23-2006 3:26 PM


Re: An analogy
Well, then, am I right or wrong that most practical science doesn't really make use of the ToE? I tried to show what I mean in relation to Quetzal's post. It may be a definitional matter in the end. But if YEC's have no problem with what is done in daily science, which is the case except for a few areas like paleontology and anthropology, isn't that corroboration of the claim in the OP that science wouldn't really be greatly affected by YEC? Just business as usual it seems to me. No need to bring up origins, ancient earth, or anything in particular about the past at all, since scientific work such as Quetzal's is focused on present problems and uses concepts and methods that have nothing to do with the theories of the distant past.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by subbie, posted 06-23-2006 3:26 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by subbie, posted 06-23-2006 3:50 PM Faith has replied
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 06-23-2006 4:23 PM Faith has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 99 of 312 (325423)
06-23-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
06-23-2006 3:41 PM


Re: An analogy
Well, then, am I right or wrong that most practical science doesn't really make use of the ToE?
I'll tell you what. I'll work on an answer to that question while I'm making dinner, lasagna and garlic cheese bread.
In the meantime, please do me the courtesy of answering my question.
On the other hand, unless you've had a major shift in your world view, I'm pretty sure you're not even considering the possibility that what I am saying, along with many others, could be true. It conflicts with your interpretation of the bible, a minority interpretation, by the way, and therefore so you dismiss it as a possibility. Am I right about that?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:53 PM subbie has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 100 of 312 (325424)
06-23-2006 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by subbie
06-23-2006 3:50 PM


Re: An analogy
In the meantime, please do me the courtesy of answering my question.
On the other hand, unless you've had a major shift in your world view, I'm pretty sure you're not even considering the possibility that what I am saying, along with many others, could be true. It conflicts with your interpretation of the bible, a minority interpretation, by the way, and therefore so you dismiss it as a possibility. Am I right about that?
What is it I'm supposed to be considering, that science IS dependent on the ToE, that you can't work with YEC, what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by subbie, posted 06-23-2006 3:50 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by subbie, posted 06-23-2006 4:17 PM Faith has not replied
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 101 of 312 (325425)
06-23-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
06-23-2006 3:53 PM


Re: An analogy
That accepting YEC would require basically starting over from scratch in virtually every scientific discipline.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:53 PM Faith has not replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5894 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 102 of 312 (325426)
06-23-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
06-23-2006 12:42 PM


Re: Ecology and Evolution
The complete answer to your question would require several volumes to explain. So I’m going to take one single, tiny piece and attempt to show how evolution (macroevolution for those who insist on this arbitrary distinction), forms a part of the bedrock upon which my work rests. As I said before, I don’t “do” evolution on a daily basis. Rather, what I do on a daily basis would be impossible if others hadn’t done the hard bits - using evolutionary theory to develop an understanding of nature that allowed them to generalize from specifics. Those generalizations form the basis for what I do. The taxon cycle appears to fit your request. It is one of - not the only - the bases for biogeographical patterns that have direct bearing on the work done by those of us who operate in fragmented habitats, because these habitats are functionally equivalent to islands. Islands are where the taxon cycle was first identified.
The taxon cycle is one of the foundational parts of island biogeography. It explains the pattern observed in biological succession on islands - a pattern that has been confirmed by observations of Krakatao and Surtsey, as well as older islands such as Madagascar. I will be substituting “fragment” for island here, as the exact same patterns have been observed in fragmented habitats. The taxon cycle is a macroevolutionary explanation that shows how over evolutionary timescales colonization leads to increasing endemicity and vulnerability to subsequent colonization. The cycle couples paleontology to observation of modern species. Besides the areas that are pertinent to my work (vulnerability to invasion), it also provides an explanation for such observations as character displacement, adaptive radiation, relictual populations in fragmented/island-type habitats, rapid speciation, and faunal turnover.
There are four stages of the taxon cycle:
I. In stage one, organisms invade the fragment from outside. These may be populations which are related to those already present, or may represent non-native exotics. IOW, depending on distance, species dispersal ability is the key criteria.
II. In stage two, the invader may expand its niche by invading other habitats. Species gradually evolve local forms that become restricted to a subset of the available habitat. They then become vulnerable to being out-competed in their original niche by further specialized invaders.
III. Species can become highly differentiated endemics that ultimately become extinct and are replaced by new invaders. Stage three species thus evidence a longer history of evolution in isolation, being found in scattered endemic forms.
IV. The final distributional pattern in the cycle is when a highly differentiated endemic species persists as a relic OR is found only as fossil or sub-fossil remains.
One reason for the success of invaders, as outlined above, is that a recent arrival may have left behind predators, parasites, and competitors on colonizing the new habitat, enabling it to flourish despite the existence of local forms with a longer period of evolutionary adaptation. We can tell relatively when a species has established itself and roughly what stage it is in by examination of the fossil record (this is especially true on large, old islands such as Hawaii and Madagascar). Distribution patterns of existing species are also indicative of relative “age” and stage, as invasives will have a greater effect on population distribution as earlier species get “squeezed” into smaller habitat patches. This is also a way to tell how impacted the habitat is by the invasive (what stage it is in).
How is this macroevolution? We can trace changes in faunal assemblages on islands through the paleontological and paleoecological records. An example, New Providence Island in the Caribbean has changed from a highly xeric environment in the Late Pleistocene, to a moist tropical environment today. Faunal assemblages have changed as much as 50% in that time frame. In those areas where a good sub-fossil record exists, we can trace the gradual change over fairly recent time frames due to environmental shifts or waves of invasives. None of this, of course, depends on absolute dates - relative dates are sufficient. Plus, we can get a pretty fair “timeframe” from observations of new islands such as Anak Krakatao to show the amount of time necessary for short term adaptations and subsequent waves of colonization to affect the local systems.
So where does this lead in my work? As I noted, I don’t try and “re-prove” the taxon cycle in my daily work. I don’t have to - someone else (many someones, actually), has already done that. However, I can and do use the concepts “proven” by the hypothesis as a foundation for some questions I need to answer. For instance, using the Agave americana example from my previous post, I can finally answer the question: Should I be worried?. Using the concepts developed under the pertinent aspects of the taxon cycle hypothesis, coupled with other observations from biogeography, I can look at a comparison of the Agave’s native habitat and my site (both xeric, for instance). I can look at a comparison between the community composition of the species’ native range, and the one I’m concerned about (Agave parasites, diseases, herbivores, etc) to determine if there are any species with counter-adaptations in my site that would control or limit expansion of Agave populations. Finally, I can look at the historical record of Agave distribution patterns in other areas and formulate a risk assessment in mine (i.e., is it susceptible to ecological release, etc). Each of these concepts is based on a macroevolutionary theory developed from applying paleontological and paleoecological patterns to existing species and populations. I’m not concerned about macroevolution in my daily work, but that work would not be possible - or worse, would be wrong - UNLESS the macroevolutionary concepts had proven accurate over the long term. From the distribution patterns of Molothrus bonairiensis in the Lesser Antilles to the invasion risk from an exotic import, it all depends on macroevolutionary theory. Not using “macroevolution” daily, but the concepts developed under the theory are the ones I DO apply every day. And remember, the taxon cycle is only one, teeny tiny aspect of biogeography, which is indeed only one aspect of my work. I can make a similar case for just about all the rest of what I do - at least as far as the theoretical underpinnings I rely on are concerned.
Wave it away as you wish, the framework provided by the ToE - not just population genetics - is critical for decision-making in current applied ecology.
Excuse me, I need to go dig up that damn Agave patch before it eats my reserve.
{The outline of the taxon cycle above was derived in part from Whittaker, RJ, 2002, Island Biogeography, Oxford Uni Press. I have used the conceptual framework of this book so often as a reference that I've had to replace it twice.}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 12:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 06-24-2006 3:41 AM Quetzal has replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2915 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 103 of 312 (325427)
06-23-2006 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
06-23-2006 3:14 PM


Re: Semantics
Which is why I made a point of identifying it as MICRO, so that it could be clearly recognized that YEC's have no problem with it. I would think that this much of YEC thinking would by now be familiar at EvC but it seems to need to be argued out every time.
Evolutionary biologists do not recognize a fundamental difference between microevolution and macroevolution. The distinction has mostly been promoted by YECs wanting to explain "within kind" evolution after the Flood and herbivore to carnivore evolution after the Fall. It is not a matter of evolutionists not being familiar with it. It is a matter of evolutionists rejecting the YEC concept of microevolution on the grounds of implausibility and inconsistency with available fossil and other evidence. So yes, until you can come up with some solid evidence, fossil or otherwise, that microevolution as defined by YECs can occur, it is going to be rejected here on scientific grounds. That is how science works. It does you no good to complain about it. Unscientific arguments are not going to pass unchallenged, if that is what you mean by "argued out every time." You say you hate science and scientists but you keep trying to make scientific arguments that are based on bad science. I suggest that if you really want to participate in these discussions that you get a basic geology text and a book on evolutionary biology and read them. Then at least you will know where we are coming from even though you will still probably disagree with us. After all, many of us here have read the Bible so I don't think it is too much to ask.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:14 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2006 5:35 PM deerbreh has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 104 of 312 (325428)
06-23-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
06-23-2006 3:41 PM


Faith writes:
Well, then, am I right or wrong that most practical science doesn't really make use of the ToE?
You're asking the wrong question. It isn't that every branch of science depends on the ToE. It's that every branch of science comes from the same root as ToE.
You're trying to excise a few "diseased" branches - ToE, geology, etc. - but the implication is that the whole tree is diseased. You can't fight Dutch Elm disease by pruning. You have to cut the whole tree down and burn it.
That's what YEC is trying to do to science.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:41 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by deerbreh, posted 06-23-2006 4:38 PM ringo has not replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2915 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 105 of 312 (325431)
06-23-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
06-23-2006 4:23 PM


You're asking the wrong question. It isn't that every branch of science depends on the ToE. It's that every branch of science comes from the same root as ToE.
You're trying to excise a few "diseased" branches - ToE, geology, etc. - but the implication is that the whole tree is diseased. You can't fight Dutch Elm disease by pruning. You have to cut the whole tree down and burn it.
Amen Brother. You got it exactly right. And just ask the Russian farmers what happens when a flawed evolutionary model is used in plant breeding, such as Lysenko genetics.
http://www.jimloy.com/biograph/lysenko.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 06-23-2006 4:23 PM ringo has not replied

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