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Author Topic:   How do creationists explain stars?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 106 of 297 (322140)
06-16-2006 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Rob
06-16-2006 1:12 AM


Re: what debate?
Rob writes:
Just that one of us is wrong, because the truth is absolute!
You and Fallacycop are exchanging one-liners and I think the original point is getting lost. You claimed that if the Bible were demonstrably false there wouldn't be a debate. Fallacycop was only pointing out that there isn't a debate. The account in Genesis is given no credence within science whatsoever.
In other words, Fallacycop is saying there is no scientific debate.
But there *is* a debate. It is a social and religious debate. It is religious because the creationists object to evolution on religious grounds. And it is social because creationists try to influence the educational community to reduce treatments of evolution while giving more consideration to creationist views.
But there's no scientific debate. Even before Darwin geologists had already established that the world was far older than the account in Genesis implies.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Rob, posted 06-16-2006 1:12 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Rob, posted 06-16-2006 10:29 AM Percy has replied
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 06-24-2006 3:31 AM Percy has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 107 of 297 (322176)
06-16-2006 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by ReverendDG
06-16-2006 2:46 AM


Re: RE Age of Stars
he thought the doctors were giving drugs to him to kill him, now of course they were not, he thought it was, what i am getting at is reality is not static or absulute it varies from person to person
but the universe does not
Do you hear yourself? He thought they were, but they were not???
The absolute reality is that they were not!
What he believes is irrelevant.... The only thing that will help him know who he is or where he is, is the truth. And the truth is reality!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ReverendDG, posted 06-16-2006 2:46 AM ReverendDG has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 108 of 297 (322186)
06-16-2006 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Percy
06-16-2006 8:08 AM


Re: what debate?

This is NOT on topic here! Please do not respond.

Even before Darwin geologists had already established that the world was far older than the account in Genesis implies.
Polystratic fossils...
Edited by AdminNosy, : Topic Warning!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Percy, posted 06-16-2006 8:08 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Percy, posted 06-16-2006 11:02 AM Rob has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 755 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 109 of 297 (322195)
06-16-2006 10:41 AM


Rob: The distance to the Large Magellanic Cloud is about 170,000 light years, as determined by several methods including plain old trigonometry. This means that the light we saw here on Earth from Supernova 1987A came from an explosion that occurred about 170,000 years before 1987.
If the Earth is about 6000 years old, and the stars were created four days after the Earth, how does this work? Did the star in the LMC explode 164,000 years before it was created? Did light from an explosion that never really happened get "created in transit" 6000 years ago so astronomers could watch events that didn't happen unfold for these last 19 years?
How does that work?

Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 110 of 297 (322209)
06-16-2006 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Rob
06-16-2006 10:29 AM


Re: what debate?
Rob writes:
Even before Darwin geologists had already established that the world was far older than the account in Genesis implies.
Polystratic fossils...
AdminNosy correctly notes that to take up this part of the discussion would draw us off-topic, but there is an on-topic component to this. Who in the scientific community is arguing that polystrate fossils invalidate modern geology? Only creationists make this argument, right? There's no scientific debate.
In the same way, there is no scientific debate about the age of stars and galaxies and how they formed. The objections once again come from the creationist community whose views are based upon an inerrant interpretation of the holy book of Christianity.
Fallacycop was rebutting your point that the existence of a difference of opinion means that the objections must have some scientific legitimacy. But the objections are religious, not scientific.
So if you want to argue that your views on stars have scientific validity, you'll have to point to scientific, not religious, evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Rob, posted 06-16-2006 10:29 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Armbar, posted 06-18-2006 3:37 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 113 by Rob, posted 06-24-2006 2:20 AM Percy has not replied

Armbar
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 297 (322799)
06-18-2006 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Percy
06-16-2006 11:02 AM


Re: what debate?

Off Topic! Please do not respond.

Forgive me, I'm not used to participating in such a busy forum.
I just find it disturbing that the anti creationists resort to looking at the stars and talking about light speed ext. When we have nations of starving children and can't seem to figure out how to feed them.
Edited by AdminNosy, : Topic warning

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Coragyps, posted 06-18-2006 8:28 AM Armbar has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 755 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 112 of 297 (322842)
06-18-2006 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Armbar
06-18-2006 3:37 AM


Re: what debate?

Off Topic! Please do not respond.

Hello, Armbar. Welcome aboard.
How is it that talking about light speed excludes helping starving kids? Am I not allowed to do both?
Edited by AdminNosy, : Topic warning

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 113 of 297 (325566)
06-24-2006 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Percy
06-16-2006 11:02 AM


Re: what debate?
So if you want to argue that your views on stars have scientific validity, you'll have to point to scientific, not religious, evidence.
On a tip from a friend, I had to check into a theory that at first seemed exciting yet I hate to get too excitied seeing what you have done to such haste in the past.
after reading several sources, I found that what at first was hastily compiled by at least one creationist, turns out to be far more credible and troublesome to science than those criticisms warranted.
What do you think of Paul Davies, from the Australian centre for Astrobiology?
he and some collegues have some interesting things to say about the speed of light slowing down...
If the Speed of light is decaying as some say, then the appearant age of the universe is way off. WAY Off!
There's your answer, in the scientific frame...
The Speed of light is not absolute!
I didn't think it wise to post the whole article here, though it is a short one. but here is the link and then a quote from Paul Davies form another source: Einstein's relativity theory hits a speed bump
Question:
Does the monotheistic tradition of an intelligible universe have any impact on modern science?
answer from Paul Davies, theoretical physicist / Australian Centre for Astrobiology:
”The worldview of a scientist, even the most atheistic scientist, is that essentially of Monotheism. It is a belief, which is accepted as an article of faith, that the universe is ordered in an intelligible way.
Now, you couldn’t be a scientist if you didn’t believe these two things. If you didn’t think there was an underlying order in nature, you wouldn’t bother to do it, because there is nothing to be found. And if you didn’t believe it was intelligible, you’d give up because there is no point if human beings can’t come to understand it.
But scientists do, as a matter of faith, accept that the universe is ordered and at least partially intelligible to human beings. And that is what underpins the entire scientific enterprise. And that is a theological position. It is absolutely ”theo’ when you look at history. It comes from a theological worldview.
That doesn’t mean you have to buy into the religion, or buy into the theology, but it is very, very significant in historical terms; that that is where it comes from and that scientists today, unshakably retain that worldview, as an act of faith. You cannot prove it logically has to be the case, that the universe is rational and intelligible. It could easily have been otherwise. It could have been arbitrary, it could have been absurd, it could have been utterly beyond human comprehension. It’s not! And scientists just take this for granted for the most part, and I think it’s a really important point that needs to be made.’

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Percy, posted 06-16-2006 11:02 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by cavediver, posted 06-24-2006 4:22 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 114 of 297 (325569)
06-24-2006 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by NosyNed
02-22-2006 12:47 PM


Re: Parallax
This answer to the question of how a Biblical worldview can support the evidence of stars, is more valuable to me than you can conceivably know... my knowsy friend.
And although I try very hard to remember that my battle is not with flesh, but with Spirit, I could not contain the glee with which I present an answer to this threads question. And it is not mine, but the answer of well respected theoretical Physicists.
So in case your already familliar with the idea, and thought it to be the hoax of some nut creationist, think again...
The speed of light is slowing down...
Einstein's relativity theory hits a speed bump

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by NosyNed, posted 02-22-2006 12:47 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by NosyNed, posted 06-24-2006 3:05 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 115 of 297 (325571)
06-24-2006 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by ReverendDG
06-14-2006 11:50 AM


Re: RE Age of Stars
See message 113 &114

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ReverendDG, posted 06-14-2006 11:50 AM ReverendDG has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 116 of 297 (325572)
06-24-2006 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
06-13-2006 11:56 AM


Re: Truth is relative?
Well, some conclusions are supported by evidence
You are right, I apologize!
Now scroll up to message 113...

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 Message 64 by jar, posted 06-13-2006 11:56 AM jar has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 117 of 297 (325573)
06-24-2006 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by sidelined
03-06-2006 12:47 PM


Re: Distance to stars and the speed of light.
They are subject to change as new evidence surfaces but they are not constructs we are free to arbitrarily build.
Remember that tidbit, because on that, we will always agree!
We do not create reality... it created us!

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 118 of 297 (325574)
06-24-2006 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Rob
06-24-2006 2:46 AM


Light slowing down
Tha is NOT what that article is about. There is NOTHING in there about light slowing down.
You should stop sounding like a know it all when you are misreading the material you post. Including Message 113. This is talking about "intelligible" NOT "intelligent".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Rob, posted 06-24-2006 2:46 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Rob, posted 06-24-2006 3:09 AM NosyNed has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 119 of 297 (325575)
06-24-2006 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by NosyNed
06-24-2006 3:05 AM


Re: Light slowing down
What's wrong with you? Don't read the quote form message 113. It is from another source, but simply the same physicist as the article link.. click the link, and read the article!
Here is a quote form that article:
If the speed of light was close to infinity, immediately after the Big Bang, as Davies believes it may have been, our theories about the way energy cooled to form matter, giving rise to stars, planets and people, could be completely wrong.
Still, correcting Einstein is no small feat and is likely to attract controversy, perhaps even animosity from scientific colleagues.
"When I first heard about these observations . . . I was, frankly, not only sceptical about it, I was appalled," Davies says. "I thought it was horrible. The last thing we wanted in theoretical physics was to have something like this."
What article did you read?
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by NosyNed, posted 06-24-2006 3:05 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by NosyNed, posted 06-24-2006 5:10 AM Rob has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 120 of 297 (325576)
06-24-2006 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Percy
06-16-2006 8:08 AM


Re: what debate?
Percy writes:
But there's no scientific debate. Even before Darwin geologists had already established that the world was far older than the account in Genesis implies.
Just out of curiousity, what's a Darwin geologist?

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Percy, posted 06-16-2006 8:08 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by cavediver, posted 06-24-2006 3:56 AM Phat has replied
 Message 129 by kuresu, posted 06-24-2006 11:43 AM Phat has not replied

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