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Author | Topic: Open Question For Jerry Falwell (and those who agree with him) | |||||||||||||||||||
lfen Member (Idle past 4699 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
what good does death do for the dead? Death frees them from the flesh and this earthly vale of tears (or is it a veil of tears?)
we should work to make heaven on earth -- live these lives as if they matter. because they do. the trick, i think, to living as a christian is to forget all about any afterlife and concentrate of living this one as best as we can, following christ's examples to the best of our abilities. I've been reading today Be Still, It Is The Wind That Sings, a free pdf book by Arthur Osborne a disciple of Ramana. The book has a lot of interesting examinations of comparative religion.
one might say that religion has modalities, the vertical and horizontal. Vertically it is man’s path to Beatitude or Liberation; horizontally it is the harmonization of individual and social life and is the soul of civilization. The vertical is the essence and the horizontal the substance. Once vertical perishes the horizontal becomes hollow within and is bound to decay. Be Still, It Is The Wind That Sings pp 345Ramana Maharshi - A Spiritual Giant of the Twentieth Century I think Christian's do overly emphasize the afterlife. That might be because Jesus was killed before he had much time to teach. I think he did say somewhere that the Kingdom of Heaven was within. This is the vertical dimension or what Osborne calls the beatitude and what I refer to as the awakening function of religion. The horizontal or social support is important but it is ego based and that is inherently suffering. The solution to suffering is being free of the ego and that can happen Now. lfen
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I think Christian's do overly emphasize the afterlife. quite. do some good here. worry about the afterlife when you're dead.
I think he did say somewhere that the Kingdom of Heaven was within. quote: that's from the gospel of thomas. it was also featured in the movie "stigmata," mangled together with verse 77 of thomas:
quote: Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
aracnophilia, quoting the Gospel of Thomas, writes: "... Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." From the "gospel" of Tom Joad:
quote: Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4081 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
The post I'm responding to is a month old, but I just saw it. I have to address this:
if we are judged to be christians or "not christians" by the heinousness of our deeds, then we will all fall far short of the mark. rather, we are defined by our belief. it is our faith that makes us christians, and our faith (and the grace of god) that saves us. all of us. Hmm. To quote your favorite Bible teacher, Arach, "They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another." His brother, James (not sure if you believe it was his brother who wrote the letter, though) said, "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." While that last quote is not from Y'shua (Jesus), I think it's obvious he would have agreed. He describes a judgment in which he tells the sheep that they'll be rewarded because they visited the sick, fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc., not because of what they believe. We may mark who is a Christian by what they claim to believe, but Christ marks them by what they do. "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven."
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Hmm. To quote your favorite Bible teacher, Arach, "They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another." faith brings love for others.
His brother, James (not sure if you believe it was his brother who wrote the letter, though) said, "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." faith brings works.
While that last quote is not from Y'shua (Jesus), I think it's obvious he would have agreed. He describes a judgment in which he tells the sheep that they'll be rewarded because they visited the sick, fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc., not because of what they believe. on the contrary, they visited the sick, fed the hungry, and clothed the naked because of what they believed: that it was right to do so. the judgement described is not christians judging other professed christians, but god judging mankind. if we judge others, we don't have that faith-instilled love.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 634 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Just to bring in another religons viewpoint.. in the Jewish faith, actions mean everything. SOmeone does not have to be Jewish to be rightous, but rather that is judged by their actions.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Just to bring in another religons viewpoint.. in the Jewish faith, actions mean everything. SOmeone does not have to be Jewish to be rightous, but rather that is judged by their actions. yes, i think people are misreading my original post:
quote: it is not about whether actions or faith make someone righteous. it is about christianity being defined by faith, not actions. we don't call someone a christian because they are righteous, we call them a christian because they profess belief. similarly, you define "jewish" by faith. it's not that someone has to be jewish to be righteous, it's that a person does not have to be righteous to be a jew. christianity generally holds that faith is the bit required for salvation -- and i was arguing with one such christian that although faith brings good works, we cannot judge the faith by the works, because we all fail. christianity should hold that no one is judged at all, and everyone is forgiven. we are judged by our actions, but forgiven by faith and grace. Edited by arachnophilia, : typo
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4081 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
it is not about whether actions or faith make someone righteous. it is about christianity being defined by faith, not actions. we don't call someone a christian because they are righteous, we call them a christian because they profess belief. You said earlier that faith produces love, works, etc. That's all fine, but here you say "we don't call someone a Christian because they are righteous," but Christ says that we call someone a Christian because they love one another. You can say faith produces love, but faith can't be seen. Love can be seen. Professing belief is utterly meaningless. Thus, you may call everyone who professes belief a Christian, but a lot of people don't agree with you, and Christ is among them. "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven." The profession of the Pharisees is that they were sons of Abraham. The profession of Christ was that they were sons of satan, vipers, hypocrites, disciples of hell, and several other none-too-favorable epithets. I remember talking once with someone about faith in Christ, and a co-worker came in and joined in with me. The person I was talking to said to the co-worker, "I don't want to hear anything you have to say, because you're a hypocrite. Go away." My co-workers profession meant nothing to this person whose actions did not match up with his profession. I think most people feel that way. Thus, I also disagree with your statement that:
if we are judged to be christians or "not christians" by the heinousness of our deeds, then we will all fall far short of the mark. That is not true. Maybe none of us are perfect, but I have always been able to produce a list of people I knew who didn't fall short of the mark at all by my standards, and another list of people who are nothing but stinkin' hypocrites. Others are in between, but I've always known people who do not fall "far short" of the mark, but are wonderful representatives of the faith they profess.
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nator Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Is it possible for someone to be a true Christian (ie believe that Christ is the Messiah), yet continually fail to behave in a Christlike manner?
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Hell yes.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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nator Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I think so too, but Whisper doesn't, apparently.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 634 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Some people are just lightning rods for Irony. I just shrug, and let it flow.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Thus, you may call everyone who professes belief a Christian, but a lot of people don't agree with you, and Christ is among them. "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven." yes, that's a good point. but this is the distinction i'm trying to make. the first half of this verse describes christians. the second part describes who is getting into heaven. christ says that not all christians get into heaven.
I remember talking once with someone about faith in Christ, and a co-worker came in and joined in with me. The person I was talking to said to the co-worker, "I don't want to hear anything you have to say, because you're a hypocrite. Go away." My co-workers profession meant nothing to this person whose actions did not match up with his profession. I think most people feel that way. yes, exactly. but the irony of the situation is that this is exactly the bahviour i'm talking about. others judge us by our actions, and the number one thing that makes people call us hypocrites is our habit of going around and condemning others, including other christians.
That is not true. Maybe none of us are perfect, but I have always been able to produce a list of people I knew who didn't fall short of the mark at all by my standards no, by god's standards. by the law.
and another list of people who are nothing but stinkin' hypocrites. Others are in between, but I've always known people who do not fall "far short" of the mark, but are wonderful representatives of the faith they profess. i promise you, they are still sinners. we all are -- and i don't feel this statement is at all abnormal. confession of sin is the very first step in becoming saved. all christians recognize that they are fallible, and have sinned, and continue to sin. alot of people play the righteous game, i know. and a lot of people are very nice and loving people. and that's what we christians should all be. but that love and compassion come from the recognition that we are imperfect ourselves. there are people who represent christ better than others, yes. i'm just saying that our representation extended to how we act towards other christians. Edited by arachnophilia, : typo
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4081 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
there are people who represent christ better than others, yes. i'm just saying that our representation extended to how we act towards other christians. At this point I'm willing to just drop the discussion. We've both had our say, and we'd just be repeating ourselves. However, can you clarify--no, explain--this last statement. I don't have a clue what you mean by "our representation extended to how we act towards other christians." Maybe I'm just dense. If you're "just saying" that, though, then it's a summary sentence, and I guess I'd better stop and ask what it is you're concluding with.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
the original point was in in regards some christians looking at some other christians and saying "they are not real christians."
it looks bad when we condemn others, even and especially if those others are also christians. we may look at jerry falwell or pat robertson and decide that their lives do not bear witness to their faith, and that they are probably not the examples we should follow -- but we cannot say "they are not christians" or condemn them to hell.
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