YEC Problem with Science Above and Beyond Evolution

Are you saying that what YEC basic premises are is unrelated to the difference between YECista stuff and Science?My questions are directly related because, as I showed, genetics, physics, astronomy would all be impossible under YECista assumptions.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Actually, how do you get from the YEC position of all the critters in the world fitting on a football field, to the variety and number we see today in only 4000 years without Hyper-Macro-evolution?It is pretty obvious that neither Faith or any other YECista is going to answer any of the questions raised in this thread. So for the benefit of the lurkers, perhaps it would be worthwhile to simply do it for them.The YEC position, unless some YECista shows up to correct me, seems to be that there was some flood about 4000 years ago that wiped out all the critters on earth 'cept a few on the big boat. The size seems to be an area about like a football field. It may have multiple decks so they may have two, even three football fields worth of critters.This presents two problems that I can see which will mean we need to throw out everything we know about genetics.First, to get from that small population to what we see today, we would need hypermacorevolution at rates that are really inconceivable. We have at that momnet 4000 years ago only the critters that would fit on the few football fields. Second in many cases we have no more than two of a kind, and except in one instance, never more than seven of a kind.The second thing that will falsify our current understanding of genetics is that a bottleneck should show up among ALL species at about 4000 years ago. This should leave a single common ancestor between all of the critters in the world about 4000 years ago. It should point us to the original Kind directly.But we don't see either of those things, no hypermacroevolution and no band of common ancestors at 4000 years ago in all current critters.That means that our current genetic model has been falsified, or that there was not such an event 4000 years ago. Only one of those two can be correct.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Bull shit Faith.Or are you saying that the alleged Flood is not part of the YEC position, even though YOU have used it numerous times in this very thread?Let's go back to Message 57.Is some creation event part of the YEC position or not? If so, when did it happen?Is the so called Fall part of the YEC position? If so when did it happen.Is the Flood part of the YEC position? If so when did it happen?This is getting just TOO funny. So the Flood is OT Faith? Then how come you said in Message 209?Edited by jar, : add a quote from DerFaith

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay Cora.Please indulge me and lets look at an example in geology like those I mentioned in physics, astronomy and genetics.Assume (we can't get a YEC to confirm) that the basics are that creation happened some 6000 years ago. About 5990 years ago some kinda something called a Fall happened and since then Physics and genetics etal have been just as we see them now.The about 4000 years ago there was some flood.If those things are true, what would we see.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Strawman and also incorrect Buz. To say that Christians and Secularists both work in science has nothing to do with either YECistas or Biblical Creationsist.Of course Christians and secularists work within the same science, as long as they reject the nonsense of Biblical Creationism and YECism.Christian does not equal either YEC or Biblical Creationist.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay, some questions.When the alleged Fall happened were Adam and Eve the only humans?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Just a word of Love for you.Remember that both Arach and I are still Christians, with as great a faith in GOD and the Bible as you. The issue that divides us is not Christianity or belief in a common GOD or even the idea that this Universe is the creation of that GOD.If you are approaching a crisis of Faith, if the volume of specific evidence that excludes YECism or the Flood, remember that the choice is not Christianity or Old Earth and Evolution. You do NOT have to abandon your faith, only those misconceptions that are holding you back.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Jar asked: to which Faith replied: Okay.Do you agree that it was at the Fall when the changes in physics or genetics or all the other laws changed?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, you said that genetic potential was greater before the Fall, is that correct?You also have said that things like radioactive decay changed at the Fall.Now you need to go into some specifics.There is no Biblical support that I know of for any changing things at the Flood.This is the problem Faith. You seem unable to tell us what the hell the YEC position is, when things happened, what happened, in fact NOTHING of any significance. So are you now saying that radioactive decay did not change at the Fall?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Science doesn't claim there was no flood, it is GOD's creation, the universe that claims there was no flood. Argue with GOD, he is the one that created the evidence.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay, so are you saying that the decay rates changed at the fall? That really is just a yes or no question. Why? Every KIND was on the boat. Is that correct? So how would the flood eliminate genetic potential?And we agree that at the time of the Fall Adam and Eve were the only humans.The flood by the way eliminated all of the races except for eight people IIRC. So it doesn't much matter if there were other races before the flood, and races existing after the flood have to be descendants and descendents of Noah and company.Is that correct?jar said: to which Faith retorted: How can it be off topic if the topic is "YEC Problem with Science Above and Beyond Evolution?"

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No Faith, that is not what we think at all. The evidence is the evidence. The fact is that every line of evidence refutes the idea that there was a flood 4000 years ago.We have pointed out to you the evidence that GOD gave us. GOD says that there wasn't a flood.If there was a flood where the only critters in the world that survived would fit on one or a few football fields, we should see

• a genetic bottleneck common to all critters all dating to about 4000 years ago
• hypermacroevolution to create the variety we see today, particularly in humans
• a single flood layer easily identifiable all over the world

Those are just a few of the things specifically related to the alleged flood.But GOD left no such evidence. GOD says that there was no worldwide flood 4000 years ago.But that's okay, GOD says that there wasn't a Fall 5990 years ago too.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I have no real problem with thae YEC position, we cannot get anyone to tell us what it is so it's hard to have a problem with it. So you agree that we should be able to see such a bottleneck?You agree that since EVERY creature living is descended from those few critters that were on the boat, that bottleneck should show a most distant common ancestor about 4000 years ago?Is that correct?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You have had opportunities to support that assertion, in fact there is a thread on the Grand Canyon where you are welcome to explain how the flood can create the individual layers see there. Now that just sounds really silly Faith. Is it possible to assemble from two to seven of every species currently alive as well as an assortment of humans and fit them all into one or even a few football fields?Faith, to get from what the Bible says was left to what we see today can only be done with some bodacious hypermacroevolution. OKAY!Very important point. You agree that current genetics does not show the bottleneck when it should. Thank you, you have refuted current genetic theories and practice.So now according to you we need to throw out:

• astronomy
• genetics
• and IIRC Paleoclimatology as well as
• Palaeontology

Shall we go on?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It's not that far back Faith. The Flood you are talking about is more recent than the Pyramids, about 5000 years more recent than the earliest buildings at Jerico, over 20,000 years more recent than the Venus of Willendorf, at least 10,000 years more recent than the Topper settlement.Four thousand years is almost yesterday.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion