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Author Topic:   Global warming - fact or conspiracy?
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 55 of 111 (325496)
06-23-2006 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ragged
06-20-2006 1:06 AM


I've read the entire thread so far--it seems no one knows who Crichton is (of course, that's highly unlikely).
You have to keep in mind, Crichton writes thrillers. Andromeda Strain, the Sphere, Jurassic Park, State of Fear, and plenty of others. As a side note, he's also behind E.R, the tv series. To give you some background--everyone's familiar with the Jurassic Park movie, and the book is along similar lines. In Andromeda Strain, a killer strain hits the earth, and five scientists try to find a way to combat it. In the Sphere, a USA spaceship (or sub?) from the future is sitting on the bottom of the ocean. His books thrive on unlikely scenarios and painting dubious pictures of business, government from what I remember.
I've not read State of Fear, but it's important to treat it with a grain of salt--it is a work of fiction with some basis in truth, much like that new movie (and less new book) the Da Vinci Code.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 58 of 111 (325505)
06-23-2006 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by johnfolton
06-23-2006 10:38 PM


Re: Elevated Co2 (greenhouse gases)
doesn't anybody realize that it's algea that does most of the photosynthesizing on this panet? They don't even have stoma, because they are, except for a few exceptions I would imagine, unicellular. That benefit of CO2 is crap. And in order to get the benefits of the CO2 you're describing, I would imagine that it would take quite a high level of CO2 in the atmoshpere.
So much for benefitting the farmer.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by johnfolton, posted 06-23-2006 11:44 PM kuresu has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 60 of 111 (325515)
06-23-2006 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by johnfolton
06-23-2006 11:44 PM


Re: Elevated Co2 (greenhouse gases)
But this doesn't take into effect what happens to the environment when the CO2 level approaches 600 ppm. What happens to the oceans? If they have a massive algal bloom, then plenty of marine organsims die. We see this happen in ponds and lakes. And you know what, we depend on marine food.
And this will undoubetdly raise the temperature of the oceans, one of two major driving forces of weather (the other being the sun, of course). What happens when you increase the warmth of the ocean by so many degrees as predicted? What happens to the rainforests? As to that one, the prediction is more desert, like the sahara. Now then, can you please tell me what basic foods grow in the desert. Does wheat? corn? rice? does livestock?
While that stuff may hold true for greenhouses, which are controlled envirnoments, man cannot control the earth. This doubling is not a good thing large scale.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

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 Message 65 by johnfolton, posted 06-24-2006 2:14 PM kuresu has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 66 of 111 (325709)
06-24-2006 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by johnfolton
06-24-2006 2:14 PM


Re: Elevated Co2 (greenhouse gases)
you were the one that claimed that more CO2 leads to increased plant growth, (due to a link with photosynthesis). It is therefore logical to sya that, increase CO2, and you will increase algae numbers, until there is a new limiting factor on the growth (like a lack of iron).
Is it a good thing to increase marble production in the ocean? You forgot to mention that the carbonic acid increases the acidity of the surface water. Now then, what happens to highly snesitive organisms when you change the acidity? If it kills a good chunk of the algea, we're all screwed.
Point is, we don't need 600ppm CO2. We don't even need 330 ppm CO2. World did just fine without that much. I say bring the level down to at most 300 ppm. Unfortunately, you don't see a problem with 600 ppm CO2. There is a major problem once it starts screwing over the oceans. Point in case--last year's hurricanes were more intense because of global warming. The latest study looked at the effect global warming was having on the natural cycles of the hurricane intensity. While el nino was mostly to blame, the AMO (or is it ALO?) the fluctuating cycle of temperature in the atlantic, played an almost insignificant role in the hurricane intensity. Rita, Wilma, and Katrina were due to el nino and global warming. Thank you CO2.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 67 of 111 (325711)
06-24-2006 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by johnfolton
06-24-2006 2:14 PM


Re: Elevated Co2 (greenhouse gases)
This is how our limestone, chalk, marble deposits formed
Try again. They are the key ingredients in those materials, but it is the organisms that take up the carbonic acid (coral reefs, shellfish, most likely others) that make those. Limestone and chalk are directly formed from dead shellfish shells.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

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 Message 68 by anglagard, posted 06-24-2006 3:21 PM kuresu has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 69 of 111 (325723)
06-24-2006 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by anglagard
06-24-2006 3:21 PM


Re: Elevated Co2 (greenhouse gases)
True, but that still invalidates the claim that ALL limestone and chalk and marble are created by the CO2 in the ocean.
Thanks for the correction.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 75 of 111 (325943)
06-24-2006 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by johnfolton
06-24-2006 11:22 PM


Re: Runaway Feedback
while the CO2 might stay in the oil wells due to pressure (I'm not sure on this--oil engineering is not something I'm familiar with), methane hydrates are formed by temperature. While initially thought to exist only on the fringes of the solar system, we have found them at the bottom of the oceans and other places--whereever the methane gas streams meats cold water. All it really is is methane gas trapped in ice.
In order for pressure to be responsible for keeping water a solid, there would have to be incredible pressure--probably comparable to that used for making diamonds.
On this you are wrong. Gases can retain heat. In fact, any matter can retain heat. Ever wonder why the road is hot? Water holds heat better than a lot of things. It does it even better than methane, which is one of the more worse global warming gases. It retains heat about 40 times more than CO2 does, or some number to the effect.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 76 of 111 (325952)
06-25-2006 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by johnfolton
06-24-2006 11:22 PM


Re: Runaway Feedback
I call bull on your article.
Although neither nitrogen or oxygen has an influence on the greenhouse effect, for some reason CO2 is assumed by environmentalists to influence the greenhouse effect so as to cause global warming. We are all waiting for an explanation of how CO2 differs from nitrogen and oxygen in its influence on the greenhouse effect. Until such explanation is forthcoming, it seems reasonable to suspect that the theorists are failing to differentiate between wholesome CO2 and poisonous CO1 (carbon monoxide) and other toxic gases that accompany CO2 in industrial pollution. Why are the global warming theorists singling out a wholesome gas that is necessary for life on earth as the culprit of the impending disasters they are predicting?
That last part is interesting. It's asking why we say a neccessary gas is bad for us. Well, you know what, oxygen can be bad for you too. Nitrogen also. Ever heard of "everything in moderation"?
ANywho, specific heat capacities of these molecules.
CO2 at 225 K = .763kJ/kgK
H2O at STP = 2.020J·g-1·K-1
N2 at 225 K = 1.039kJ/kgK
Problem is, is nitrogen levels and oxygen and water vapor levels are relatively stable. CO2 holds heat, and that's what's exceeding the natural cycle. anywho, I'm pretty certain that water has a higher specific heat (as I remember from my chemistry classes)

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by johnfolton, posted 06-24-2006 11:22 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by johnfolton, posted 06-25-2006 1:48 AM kuresu has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 79 of 111 (326085)
06-25-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by johnfolton
06-25-2006 1:48 AM


Re:
Sure, for now the heat is getting caught in the atmosphere, but that heat is getting back to the surface.
As to the hydrates being stable at that temperature and pressure--increase the temperature of the water, then see what happens.
Ever realize that the dessert has very little humidity? The air over the desert in dry, in terms of water, the best heat trap we have. Also, sand isn't that great at holding on to heat, so as soon as the sun is gone, and without that water, the desert gets cold--very cold.
The only thing with that water vapor--we're seeing a greater increase in heat than if everything was following the cycle it has for the last millions of years. This takes into account increasd/decreased solar energy and levels of greenhouse gases. If you look at the charts for how much CO2 is in the air--it rises steadily at the start of the industrial revolution, and there's more than if it was from just natural causes. Day to day, nature puts out more than us, but we tip the scale in favor of adding to the global warming effect.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

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