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Author Topic:   YEC Problem with Science Above and Beyond Evolution
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 241 of 312 (325944)
06-24-2006 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by arachnophilia
06-24-2006 11:48 PM


Re: that same old deception again
while a testament to the wonders of the universe given to ignorant and earth-bound ancient hebrews would be truly inspiring, why would god do such a thing, besides to prove himself? sure, he could have given us the encyclopedia galactica had he wanted -- but would the people he was giving it to understand it? would we understand it today?
Okay, that's a possibility.
But that would make it a simple minded explanation that could be understood by the people of that time. It would not make it correct 21st century science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by arachnophilia, posted 06-24-2006 11:48 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by arachnophilia, posted 06-24-2006 11:56 PM nwr has not replied
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 12:01 AM nwr has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 242 of 312 (325945)
06-24-2006 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by nwr
06-24-2006 11:53 PM


Re: that same old deception again
exactly. we tell our kids similar stories.
but you don't see anyone arguing for "santa claus physics" or "the stork theory of birth."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by nwr, posted 06-24-2006 11:53 PM nwr has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 243 of 312 (325947)
06-24-2006 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by jar
06-24-2006 11:45 PM


Re: Design, not descent
NO LAWS changed EVER as far as I know. I said that I thought.
CONDITIONS changed. Changed at the Fall, changed at the Flood, both.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by jar, posted 06-24-2006 11:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:04 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 244 of 312 (325948)
06-25-2006 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by nwr
06-24-2006 11:53 PM


Re: that same old deception again
But that would make it a simple minded explanation that could be understood by the people of that time. It would not make it correct 21st century science.
Nobody claims the Bible is science. BUT IT IS TRUTH!
What causes all this contention is Science's daring to claim there was no Flood and that human beings descended from the primordial ooze along with everything else. If science is going to contradict a couple of basic Biblical tenets, we have a war on our hands.
God's word speaks to all people in all times and places. That's its genius. There is nothing limited about God's word.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by nwr, posted 06-24-2006 11:53 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:09 AM Faith has replied
 Message 247 by nwr, posted 06-25-2006 12:20 AM Faith has replied
 Message 248 by arachnophilia, posted 06-25-2006 12:21 AM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 245 of 312 (325949)
06-25-2006 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
06-24-2006 11:58 PM


Re: Design, not descent
Well, you said that genetic potential was greater before the Fall, is that correct?
You also have said that things like radioactive decay changed at the Fall.
Now you need to go into some specifics.
There is no Biblical support that I know of for any changing things at the Flood.
This is the problem Faith. You seem unable to tell us what the hell the YEC position is, when things happened, what happened, in fact NOTHING of any significance.
Faith writes:
NO LAWS changed EVER as far as I know. I said that I thought.
CONDITIONS changed. Changed at the Fall, changed at the Flood, both.
So are you now saying that radioactive decay did not change at the Fall?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 06-24-2006 11:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 12:23 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 246 of 312 (325950)
06-25-2006 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
06-25-2006 12:01 AM


Re: that same old deception again
What causes all this contention is Science's daring to claim there was no Flood and that human beings descended from the primordial ooze along with everything else.
Science doesn't claim there was no flood, it is GOD's creation, the universe that claims there was no flood. Argue with GOD, he is the one that created the evidence.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 12:01 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by MangyTiger, posted 06-25-2006 12:27 AM jar has not replied
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 12:30 AM jar has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 247 of 312 (325954)
06-25-2006 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
06-25-2006 12:01 AM


Re: that same old deception again
Nobody claims the Bible is science. BUT IT IS TRUTH!
In exactly the same way that when parents tell their children about Santa Claus, IT IS TRUTH.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 12:01 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 12:34 AM nwr has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 248 of 312 (325956)
06-25-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
06-25-2006 12:01 AM


Re: that same old deception again
Nobody claims the Bible is science. BUT IT IS TRUTH!
quote:
Jhn 18:38 What is truth?
God's word speaks to all people in all times and places. That's its genius. There is nothing limited about God's word.
yes, i agree. it's a very beautiful and profound, and important text. but does it need to be a science textbook to be of value, and contain truth?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 12:01 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 12:33 AM arachnophilia has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 249 of 312 (325957)
06-25-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
06-25-2006 12:04 AM


Re: Design, not descent
Well, you said that genetic potential was greater before the Fall, is that correct?
No, I said the original Kinds had enormous genetic potential. Over many generations it would *gradually* decrease in the different branches or races, due to the usual causes like geographic isolation of populations and death. The Flood would of course have eliminated a LOT of genetic potentials from all Kinds.
You also have said that things like radioactive decay changed at the Fall.
I believe I said conditions might have been appreciably different than they are now so that decay rate would be very different than a uniformitarian assumption would dictate.
Now you need to go into some specifics.
There is no Biblical support that I know of for any changing things at the Flood.
Really? A worldwide Flood in which "fountains of the deep" broke up and rain poured down from the sky for the first time ever, in endless torrents for weeks on end, wouldn't have changed things? The antediluvian world is said to have been watered by "mists." Most of it is inference of course. Only a dope expects the Bible to spell out every event and give every implication and leave nothing to intelligence.
This is the problem Faith. You seem unable to tell us what the hell the YEC position is, when things happened, what happened, in fact NOTHING of any significance.
Who said I'm unable? Your demanding that on this thread is off topic and bullying as usual. I was doing some decent work supporting the YEC position on everyday science in relation to the OP list of sciences before you decided to derail it.
Faith writes:
NO LAWS changed EVER as far as I know. I said that I thought.
CONDITIONS changed. Changed at the Fall, changed at the Flood, both.
So are you now saying that radioactive decay did not change at the Fall?
See above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:38 AM Faith has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 250 of 312 (325959)
06-25-2006 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by jar
06-25-2006 12:09 AM


Re: that same old deception again
Science doesn't claim there was no flood, it is GOD's creation, the universe that claims there was no flood.
Without wishing to be too pedantic I disagree.
The Universe doesn't claim there was no flood - it states it absolutely and definitively.
What causes all this contention is Science's daring to claim there was no Flood and that human beings descended from the primordial ooze along with everything else.
(My bold)
This comment form Faith illustrates something I've never understood about Biblical literalists. Essentially they're saying that we shouldn't use the intellect and brains their God gave us to examine the Universe that He created - you either follow the evidence all the way to where it leads or you may as well not bother starting.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:09 AM jar has not replied

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 Message 255 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 12:42 AM MangyTiger has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 251 of 312 (325961)
06-25-2006 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by jar
06-25-2006 12:09 AM


Re: that same old deception again
Science doesn't claim there was no flood, it is GOD's creation, the universe that claims there was no flood. Argue with GOD, he is the one that created the evidence.
You guys have the most absurd delusion going here. You look at the universe and say there was no flood and claim the universe said that instead of that it's your looking-at-it that's getting it wrong. You don't even know you are believing your own senses over God. What self-deception. You actually think that YOUR OWN JUDGMENT of the evidence IS the evidence. You're just trusting your own subjective reading and you don't even recognize it. And you carry on and on and on about this. This is exactly WHY God inspired His word, because people are such idiots they think what they think is the truth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:47 AM Faith has replied
 Message 266 by ReverendDG, posted 06-25-2006 1:01 AM Faith has replied
 Message 278 by lfen, posted 06-25-2006 1:34 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 252 of 312 (325962)
06-25-2006 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by arachnophilia
06-25-2006 12:21 AM


Re: that same old deception again
Well, if you want to put yourself in the place of Pilate and question the truth of God I'm afraid that's very appropriate in this context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by arachnophilia, posted 06-25-2006 12:21 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by arachnophilia, posted 06-25-2006 12:42 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 253 of 312 (325963)
06-25-2006 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by nwr
06-25-2006 12:20 AM


Re: that same old deception again
Santa Claus is not truth, and I hurt for you every time you say something against God's truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by nwr, posted 06-25-2006 12:20 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by nwr, posted 06-25-2006 12:45 AM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 254 of 312 (325964)
06-25-2006 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
06-25-2006 12:23 AM


Re: Design, not descent
Faith writes:
I believe I said conditions might have been appreciably different than they are now so that decay rate would be very different than a uniformitarian assumption would dictate.
Okay, so are you saying that the decay rates changed at the fall? That really is just a yes or no question.
The Flood would of course have eliminated a LOT of genetic potentials from all Kinds.
Why? Every KIND was on the boat. Is that correct? So how would the flood eliminate genetic potential?
And we agree that at the time of the Fall Adam and Eve were the only humans.
The flood by the way eliminated all of the races except for eight people IIRC. So it doesn't much matter if there were other races before the flood, and races existing after the flood have to be descendants and descendents of Noah and company.
Is that correct?
jar said:
You seem unable to tell us what the hell the YEC position is, when things happened, what happened, in fact NOTHING of any significance.
to which Faith retorted:
Who said I'm unable? Your demanding that on this thread is off topic and bullying as usual. I was doing some decent work supporting the YEC position on everyday science in relation to the OP list of sciences before you decided to derail it.
How can it be off topic if the topic is "YEC Problem with Science Above and Beyond Evolution?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 12:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 12:48 AM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 255 of 312 (325965)
06-25-2006 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by MangyTiger
06-25-2006 12:27 AM


Re: that same old deception again
This comment form Faith illustrates something I've never understood about Biblical literalists. Essentially they're saying that we shouldn't use the intellect and brains their God gave us to examine the Universe that He created - you either follow the evidence all the way to where it leads or you may as well not bother starting.
Nobody is against using your intellect. The point is your intellect is flawed and you misjudge the evidence and refuse to recognize that. When you start out believing your own mind over the word of God you are already off on the wrong track. There is no lack of intellect involved in the exploration of the world ACCORDING to God's word. But you've rejected God's word and can't ever get it right because of that. Intellect BEGINS there, and only goes wrong otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by MangyTiger, posted 06-25-2006 12:27 AM MangyTiger has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by nwr, posted 06-25-2006 12:49 AM Faith has replied

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