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Author Topic:   A question of numbers (one for the maths fans)
nwr
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Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 107 of 215 (325869)
06-24-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by riVeRraT
06-24-2006 9:34 PM


To multiply by 10, you shift the decimal point one position to the right. Where's the problem?

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 Message 106 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 9:34 PM riVeRraT has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 110 of 215 (325883)
06-24-2006 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by riVeRraT
06-24-2006 9:58 PM


10x-x= 3.333... - 0.333...
3x=3
A s mall slip there. 10x-x is 9x, so that last line should be
9x=3

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 Message 108 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 9:58 PM riVeRraT has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 114 of 215 (325893)
06-24-2006 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by riVeRraT
06-24-2006 10:27 PM


But, the last digit has to move over, and it can't since there is no last digit.
Almost right. If there were a last digit, it would have to move over. But since there is no last digit, there isn't any problem. You still have an infinite string of '9' digits.

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 Message 115 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 10:40 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 117 of 215 (325905)
06-24-2006 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by riVeRraT
06-24-2006 10:40 PM


What number do we lose if we are using 0.999... ?
We don't lose any, because there is always another 9 to the right of it that can replace it.
Here is a mathematician's secret. Don't tell anybody.
Mathematics is fun precisely because we get to deal with the infinite. If it were not for that, then mathematics would be as boring as accounting balancing your checkbook.
Edited by nwr, : reword the last sentence

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 135 of 215 (326052)
06-25-2006 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by riVeRraT
06-25-2006 9:31 AM


Re: elementary algebra
In a normal subtraction equation, for us, or for a computer, we subtract one column at a time, not all of the simultaneously. Even if we did do it simultaneously, I am finding a problem with subtracting an infinite number from another infinite number, in that the number NEVER ends. So the equation can never end. It can't resolve, just like 10/3 can't resolve.
From a mathematician's perspective, I have to disagree with that.
Subtraction is something you do with numbers. The string of digits written on the paper is not a number. Rather, it is a physical representation of a number.
The process you describe with "we subtract one column at a time" is an action on the representations. It is a mechanical procedure we carry out to find the representation of the result of subtraction. That the mechanical procedure is only defined for finite strings of digits, in no way proves that subtraction is impossible. At most, it shows that the mechanical procedure is impossible.
Subtraction between numbers can be defined mathematically (or logically if you prefer that term) independent of the details of how we represent the number with ink and paper.

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 Message 133 by riVeRraT, posted 06-25-2006 9:31 AM riVeRraT has replied

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 Message 141 by riVeRraT, posted 06-25-2006 10:31 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 146 of 215 (326078)
06-25-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by riVeRraT
06-25-2006 10:31 AM


Re: elementary algebra
There is no end to the number, so there is no end to the equation.
Then you missed the point entirely.
Numbers do not have ends or beginnings. Those are not properties of numbers. Strings of digits may have ends or beginnings. But the numbers they represent do not.
You need to make a distinction between numbers, and strings of digits.
The string 0.999... does represent a number. And the reason it respresents a number, is that we have well established conventions that specify how strings of digits can represent numbers. These conventions extend to infinite decimal representations.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 160 of 215 (326102)
06-25-2006 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by riVeRraT
06-25-2006 11:36 AM


Re: ack
∞ + 1 - ∞ = 0
∞ - ∞ + 1 = 1
Neither of those actually make much sense. You cannot treat infinity as if it were an ordinary number.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 211 of 215 (327008)
06-27-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by riVeRraT
06-27-2006 10:32 PM


Re: Mind full
My main question, is, does infinity exist.
That's the wrong question.
We invent mathematical entities. Thus we can invent infinity. The mathematical sense of "exist" is different from the physical sense of "exist". If we can invent a suitable concept of infinity that does not cause any inconsistencies in our mathematics, then we can say that infinity exists in the mathematical sense.

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