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Author Topic:   Do animals have souls?
kalimero
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 181 of 303 (326136)
06-25-2006 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Ben!
06-25-2006 6:27 AM


What is the fundamental difference between seeing genes under a microscope and "experiencing their expressions"?
The microscope stuff was a joke (sorry), and a bad one too.
When I said "experience their expressions" I meant the parts of a living organism that are determened by genes (every part to a degree obviously), that includes the genes of the person experiencing the experience - and the way that person experiences is also a result of his genetic makeup.
I see a reason why: genes are too low-level to adequately explain "self", just like quantum electrodynamics is too low-level to adequately explain the motion of grasses when a wind blows through a plain.
I see your point. But I do think that the way people experience the world is at partialy determened by their genes and so hypotheticaly you can partialy (I left that out for some reason) explain perseption by genetics. Just like you can partialy explain interactions in gases by: PV=nRT, but that is by no means enough - its just idealizing the situation. From there you can add more variables to make your hypothasis more accurate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Ben!, posted 06-25-2006 6:27 AM Ben! has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 182 of 303 (326312)
06-26-2006 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by kalimero
06-25-2006 2:52 AM


It doesnt have to. Though I see no reason why genes cant explain "self".
Since "self" has no explanation and no physical proof we might as well say that genes explain fairies, gnomes, elves and a host of other non physical things.
You cant experience genes (unless under a microscope) - you can experience their expressions, which are not nesseserily influenced completely by the genes. What you experience is a combination of many different influences.
So the interaction of the kalimero that I am experiencing is the expression of influenced genes.
Kalimero is expression?
I am experiencing the expression kalimero?
This experience is confusing. What is Kalimero?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by kalimero, posted 06-25-2006 2:52 AM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by kalimero, posted 06-26-2006 5:18 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 185 by ramoss, posted 06-26-2006 10:48 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 183 of 303 (326313)
06-26-2006 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by ramoss
06-24-2006 2:13 PM


I would say that 'YOU' are a bunch of neurons that form the shape of an analog computer that is having an encounter with another analog computer that has the designation of "Kalimero".
I am interacting with an anolog computer?
Ramoss is an analog computer
I am still not sure what a kalimero is
I am a soul.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by ramoss, posted 06-24-2006 2:13 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ramoss, posted 06-26-2006 10:50 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 184 of 303 (326316)
06-26-2006 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-26-2006 3:38 AM


Since "self" has no explanation and no physical proof...
Really? It has no proof, unlike "soul"?!?
definition of self (noun):
Self Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
testing for recognition:
Mirror test - Wikipedia
evidence of the functionality of 'self':
Page has gone | New Scientist
...we might as well say that genes explain fairies, gnomes, elves and a host of other non physical things.
Not to imply that 'self' is "non physical" - just because you explain one "non physical" thing doesnt mean you explain them all.
I dont think that there is even such a thing as "non physical" - mthamatics might be abstract but it has a physical basis.
So the interaction of the kalimero that I am experiencing is the expression of influenced genes.
Yes but not only genes.
Kalimero is expression?
Kalimero is an expression - of genes and many more things.
I am experiencing the expression kalimero?
Yes, nice to meet you.
This experience is confusing. What is Kalimero?
I am Kalimero. I = self = what I said above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-26-2006 3:38 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-26-2006 1:06 PM kalimero has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 185 of 303 (326410)
06-26-2006 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-26-2006 3:38 AM


Since "self" has no explanation and no physical proof we might as well say that genes explain fairies, gnomes, elves and a host of other non physical things.
Please explain this. As far as I can see that "SELF" is a pattern or recognition from an analog computer, and the physical proof is the behavior patterns of the person/animal.
Genes allow for the formation of the specific parts of the brain. The specific parts of the brain that deal with self recognition (The "I"
that we associated with humans) is in the right hemisphere, in the frontal lobes (at least when it comes to recognizing your own face).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-26-2006 3:38 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 186 of 303 (326412)
06-26-2006 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-26-2006 3:45 AM


You might htink you are a soul. Are you> What is a 'SOUL'. What is the physical properties of a 'SOUL'.
Or, are you just patterns of behavior that dissolve after the chemical reactions break down?
I don't see any evidence that anything of 'self' remains after the chemical reactions we call 'life' cease.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-26-2006 3:45 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 187 of 303 (326468)
06-26-2006 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by kalimero
06-26-2006 5:18 AM


I am Kalimero. I = self = what I said above.
Kalimero is an expression - of genes and many more things.
Etymology: Middle English (intensive pronoun), from Old English; akin to Old High German selb, intensive pronoun, and probably to Latin suus one's own.
This definition is very unclear. Ones Own. What is meant by this.
Ones own what?
Web definitions for self
your consciousness of your own identity
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
This definition suggests conciousness or identity belonging to what?
"I am a soul."
This is also from Britanica.
Results 1-10 of 1,648.
soul
in religion and philosophy, the immaterial aspect or essence of a human being, that which confers individuality and humanity, often considered to be synonymous with the mind or the self.
^ I identify more with this.^
In the definition below I do not identify with the first part and only barely with the second.
the immaterial part of a person; the actuating cause of an individual life
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn - Definition in context
This is what twice_baked_taters is:
I am not a part of a person. I am not a cause. I am me. The soul. I am the possessor of all aspects of me. I am not the sum of my parts nor can I be properly identified by individual aspects of me. I experience being a person. This person the Kalimero experiences is a reflection of me.
So far what I am understanding is that a Kalimero is a product of influences or the outcome of genes.
The difference in the nature of all these definitions is fundamental. So I will ask again. What is a kalimero? Is it the product of physical events or is there a soul that I can identify that experiences all these things, can be identified by these things but is not defined by any one of these these things.
Is kalimero a soul that experiences or simply a product of events?
I wish to not experience the nonsense of web definitions which are other experiences.
I the soul identified here as twice_baked_taters have given you my definition of myself.
What is a kalimero?
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by kalimero, posted 06-26-2006 5:18 AM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by kalimero, posted 06-26-2006 1:23 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 188 of 303 (326477)
06-26-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-26-2006 1:06 PM


You do understand that this is the science forum?
You should try to base your arguement on evidence or at least some kind of logic I can debate.
4. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
"Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration."
So I will ask again. What is a kalimero?
"Avoid bare assertions."
This is what twice_baked_taters is:
I am not a part of a person. I am not a cause. I am me. The soul. I am the possessor of all aspects of me. I am not the sum of my parts nor can I be properly identified by individual aspects of me. I experience being a person. This person the Kalimero experiences is a reflection of me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-26-2006 1:06 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-04-2006 11:20 PM kalimero has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 189 of 303 (328864)
07-04-2006 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by kalimero
06-26-2006 1:23 PM


I simply asked for a definition.
It has not been provided.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by kalimero, posted 06-26-2006 1:23 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by kalimero, posted 07-05-2006 6:48 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 190 of 303 (328885)
07-05-2006 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-04-2006 11:20 PM


Kalimero am I, I am my self. I have provided the definition for these.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-04-2006 11:20 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-06-2006 12:19 AM kalimero has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 191 of 303 (329149)
07-06-2006 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by kalimero
07-05-2006 6:48 AM


I will try this once more.
I am a soul.
What are you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by kalimero, posted 07-05-2006 6:48 AM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by kalimero, posted 07-06-2006 12:11 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 192 of 303 (329355)
07-06-2006 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-06-2006 12:19 AM


I am a soul.
Assertions! please provide evidence.
What are you?
That is a very general question - hard to answer, but I think I'll try:
I am the product of interactions between a comlex of neurons.
Consciousness - Wikipedia
Take a look at the 'Cognitive Neuroscience' section.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-06-2006 12:19 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-06-2006 8:28 PM kalimero has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 193 of 303 (329491)
07-06-2006 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by kalimero
07-06-2006 12:11 PM


Assertions! please provide evidence
I am the evidence.
That is a very general question - hard to answer, but I think I'll try:
I am the product of interactions between a comlex of neurons.
Consciousness - Wikipedia
Take a look at the 'Cognitive Neuroscience' section.
I see. Kalimero is a product
I am experiencing a product.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by kalimero, posted 07-06-2006 12:11 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by ramoss, posted 07-06-2006 8:55 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 195 by kalimero, posted 07-07-2006 3:07 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 194 of 303 (329495)
07-06-2006 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-06-2006 8:28 PM


Yet, you claim YOU are a soul.
What is a soul. Does it exist after 'life'??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-06-2006 8:28 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-07-2006 8:49 PM ramoss has not replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 195 of 303 (329643)
07-07-2006 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-06-2006 8:28 PM


I am the evidence.
You are evidence?!?! please explain how this prooves a sole.
I see. Kalimero is a product
I am experiencing a product.
Yes - whats your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-06-2006 8:28 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-07-2006 8:19 PM kalimero has replied

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