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Author Topic:   Human Origins: Let's Talk Mitochondrial Eve
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 29 (326137)
06-25-2006 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Pensees
12-24-2005 12:28 AM


Tracking back to "Mitochondrial Eve"
Since Mitochondrial Eve came up on a thread yesterday in reference to a human bottleneck, I've been trying to understand this bit of science, and I am getting nowhere.
First let me say that I don't have any problem with the idea that the mitochondria is inherited through the mother all the way back, so that it can only go back to a single female for each and every one of us. Father's mothers don't count and all that. That much I get.
What I don't get is not all that clear or easy to put into words. I understand that samples of mitochondria were taken from individuals all over the planet, and that this is what led to this particular woman in Africa 150 to 200 thousand years ago. I've read some discussions about this supposed first woman and all the speculations surrounding that, but that is the CONCLUSION of this study that was done, and what I don't get is the specifics of that study, the evidentiary and mental route taken to arrive there. I'm trying to picture what was actually DONE in this study, and it's driving me crazy. I want to be able to TRACK all the thinking that went into arriving at the conclusion.
Sorry if the question is vague, but I'd really appreciate anyone's effort to sort it out and answer it.
{Edit:
Like, what exactly are they seeing when they look at the mitochrondria of each person in the study?
Like, some question is raised about the value of a mere sample, no matter how diversely collected, considering that it's still only a very small portion of the living human population.
Like, how much guesswork is involved and at what points in the study.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by NosyNed, posted 06-25-2006 2:15 PM Faith has replied
 Message 25 by nwr, posted 06-25-2006 4:00 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 28 by Nuggin, posted 06-25-2006 6:08 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 06-25-2006 7:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 29 (326138)
06-25-2006 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ramoss
02-08-2006 8:36 AM


a bunch of questions
the 'mitochondria eve' is merely the date approximation of the woman whose mitochondria genes have replaced all the other variations from her time period.
Replaced? Only ones that survived, doesn't that mean? And what's important about this anyway? I just don't get it. It seems whimsically arbitrary to track this phenomenon.
Other genes will have a different time frame in which a specific strain became dominate. The 'Y' chromosome dates back to the man who is the great great great (unknown number of greats) of all the men of hte world.
Yeah, but I see no conceivable significance to this. It's just an odd artifact of genetic structure.
Let's look at it this way. YOu have 5 woman. Each woman has 3 kids. One woman has nothing but boys. Her mitochondria dna no longer is in the gene pool, yet her genes are. One woman has 1 girl, and two boys, and her girl has nothing but boys. .. her mitochondria DNA is elminate from the gene pool. Repeat for a long enough time.. and sooner or later, just one of those 5 woman will have their mitochondria DNA prominent over the rest of them.
I get it, I get it, but so what? It's not as if billions of women hadn't existed and passed on their genes. It's just that one particular woman's mitochondria happened to survive a complex chain of genetic transmission -- and all that means is that there just happened to be an unbroken chain of mother-daughter transmission, an accidental and not at all significant fact that I can see. I see absolutely no significance to this fact. I can't see how this indicates a bottleneck. I just don't get the whole scenario.
I also do not see how anyone could possibly figure out the exact SOURCE of the particular woman. Location, timing etc. So they found this one kind of mitochondria in all these people all over the world. Well, it does apparently indicate, according to the basics about mitochondria, that it does all go back to just one particular woman back sometime or other, but how on earth could anybody guess where? And again, why does it matter????
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by NosyNed, posted 06-25-2006 2:23 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 29 (326141)
06-25-2006 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by NosyNed
06-25-2006 2:15 PM


Re: First woman
Sorry if I phrased it wrong. I think I get all that. I just don't get why it MATTERS that there just happened to be this one unbroken chain of mother-daughter transmission. It's not as if all the other women whose mitochondria DIDN'T get passed on, because the chain of daughters was broken, didn't pass on their genes, or didn't exist. Millions, billions of others. Where's the "bottleneck?" It seems like an arbitrary oddness of genetics that ends up meaning nothing.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 29 (326144)
06-25-2006 2:28 PM


I'd really like someone to walk me through the process of thinking that led back to this woman, including all the evidence gathered along the way. I get the basic idea about the inheritance of mitochondria from mother to daughter.
It would help to understand how it is known that there is only one type of mitochondria per woman, perhaps; how it was surmised which population group it originated in etc.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 29 (326145)
06-25-2006 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by NosyNed
06-25-2006 2:23 PM


Re: A bottleneck
I think this has to do with population genetics as I hinted at in my earlier post. I believe it is possible to do the calculations and determine that there has to be a small enough population at some point for only one DNA line to reach to today.
OK that's helpful. Something to do with probabilities then.
It is by a comparison of the differences in the DNA that the likely location of the "eve" is determined. It is part of learning about our past.
Differences in the DNA? Don't get it.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 29 (326151)
06-25-2006 2:47 PM


a couple more questions
Probably answered somewhere I overlooked but anyway:
Is it the idea that ALL women living today have this particular mitochondrial DNA?
Were all the samples taken of women? Men DO have this mitochondrial DNA, right, they just don't pass it on, right?

Replies to this message:
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