Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.

That remains to be seen. Most of my life I never gave a monkeys about the question of God. It was a non-issue. I'd be polite to whatever bible basher called to my door, pose a 'tricky' question or two ("What about the sheep herder up the side of a mountain in Tibet whose never heard of Christ"). It was right before I came to Christ (or rather him to me) that my objections reached the same kind of fever pitch as one sees around here.Hope springs eternal.

In his dissecting of the gospel in Romans, Paul demonstrates that righteousness has always been something which God credits to mans account when man expresses faith in God. In the context of the times he was writing in, Paul was dealing with legalistic religion of Judaism which held/holds that it is mans adherance to the Law of God which will bring about his righteousness. Religion. Paul is still dealing with it today.

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Romans 4:

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1What then shall we say that Abraham, our (the Jews) forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about”but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a]

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4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith(equated with belief here) is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

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Men were declared righteous before Christ. They were put 'into Christ' before he came as much as any person is after he came. God had a way to call them then. And he still does now.

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Romans 1: 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities”his eternal power and divine nature”have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse

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Man might cry 'insufficient evidence in Nature". This does not mean that God views it that way. Every man too has a conscience which calls on him.The Gospel should be seen as the mechanism of salvation rather than a form of words. See it in the same way as a DVD player is not represented by the words which tell you how it works. The gospel is something that always existed and has always been applied as a saving mechanism to people. That the mechanism isn't talked about doesn't mean the mechanism cannot be applied.Why talk about the mechanism if there other ways for it to be applied? Simply because the Bible tells me so.

Welcome to EvC HT If I was certain that there was no afterlife, etc. (although it is actually impossible to be certain of this) then "eat, drink, be merry - for tomorrow we die" would most definitely be my philosophy.And I wouldn't have any reason to let anyone stand in my way of so living. If that meant having to do what I had to do then I would have no reason not to do it.

That there are 100 mutually exclusive gods to be extracted from the Bible means that God is not to be 'extracted' from the Bible is a non sequitur Ramoss.Edited by iano, : Prophecy: "perhaps, but it is a pretty convincing non-sequitur for all that"

Unfortunately I believe that is an apt description of far too many Christians and infact, members of other religions as well. They have no internal compass, no concious, no personal ethics. They can only exist within society when there is some external force that makes them fear not behaving in a civilized manner, and should that coercive factor falter, they resort to tyranny and sociopathic behavior.That is NOT IMHO the message of either the Bible, Christianity or any other religion.IMHO the message of Christianity is quite different from what iano espouses. GOD gave us the gift of knowing right from wrong and has charged each of us to try to do what is right and to try to avoid doing what is wrong.It realy is as simple as that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

As rare as a hobby horses poo perhaps, but I heartily concur with you there. The 'force' I think you are referring to is Religion - a curse on its house.

You are missing my point.My point is that the 'god' you were found was the god you expected. Just like the god other people found (that is mutually exclusive iwth your viewpoitn) was the one they found (in what ever scripture they were looking for).That shows your finding the god you are looking for no big deal. It is just using the holy books to reinforce what you already believed in.

I think you are missing mine. I didn't find God in the Bible. I found God and then went to the Bible and found the Bible to be the 'book' which described that which I already knew of God as I had found him. First knowing God then the Bible. That is the sequence. My knowledge of God verified that the Bible came from him - because what the Bible said of him was what I had found of him. Not the other way around. My point re: concluding god-in-my-own-image is always the case just because all sorts of gods can be found in the Bible is a non-sequitur

I don't believe that.Let's say you were in a complete vacuum before you "met" God - never heard of Him. After you met Him, what prompted you to look at the Bible at all? Why not the Qur'an? Why not the Upanishads? Why not the Book of Mormon? Why not Dianetics?How much of your "knowledge" of God is really based on your "meeting" and how much did you really learn from the Bible? How much did you learn from people telling you what the Bible says? Is it just coincidence that you found a church full of like-minded people?(Remember, your Bible "knowledge" and "understanding" are on record here. )

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Fine

Hi hunchentoot, welcome to EvC That makes me an ace chap then, after a particularly grueling day with people I get pig sick of the fuckers. But then you sigh and get back to work.The point is, helping people (even when lets face it they can piss anyone off) without some notion of a heavenly reward is more noble than doing it because you don't want to go to hell.

Thank you for that thought-provoking answer. I'm sure we're all suitably impressed.How about an answer to any or all of the eight questions I asked?

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Sorry Iano, I don't see how that answers my question. My eyes glaze when you quote the bible. Can you explain in your words where the neanderthals go?I hope you don't think me obtuse but I can't get my head round the bible.

Thats what is so odd Iano. Almost all of my friends are not religious and none of us have any trouble not ascribing to that philosphy.Am I to understand that you believe people (in general) need the xian god to act in a friendly loving way?

Rub them... That requires a certain amount of Faith and Belief. And sufficient I do not have. I don't think you are being obtuse at all. I am wondering why you are plumbing the depths of F&B though..