Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-18-2019 3:11 AM
17 online now:
CosmicChimp, dwise1, Pressie (3 members, 14 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 853,982 Year: 9,018/19,786 Month: 1,440/2,119 Week: 200/576 Day: 3/98 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123
4
56
...
16NextFF
Author Topic:   The Flood - Animals and their minimum food requirement
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 46 of 239 (326947)
06-27-2006 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Gary
06-27-2006 8:19 PM


Re: Could immature animals be taken aboard?
One other problem with young critters is that often they need a whole different food set than when fully grown, for example masticated worms and partially digested material. Also, they would have to know the full lifecycle of the critters including generational changes to plan ahead for teh food supply.

I wonder which one of the kids got to chew up the rotten meat and then regurgitate it for the baby hyena kinds?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Gary, posted 06-27-2006 8:19 PM Gary has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Discreet Label, posted 06-27-2006 8:30 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 48 by Gary, posted 06-27-2006 8:33 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3228 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 47 of 239 (326949)
06-27-2006 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
06-27-2006 8:24 PM


Re: Could immature animals be taken aboard?
And actually i wonder how they would have built the knowledge of domestication up to that point. Or even if it implies that all the animals were domesticated. I mean consider its taken us till now to even really study non-domesticated animals and their life cycles, where would have Noah found the time, or even the people before them have found the time to make all these observations.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 06-27-2006 8:24 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Gary
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 239 (326950)
06-27-2006 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
06-27-2006 8:24 PM


Re: Could immature animals be taken aboard?
That is a good point. I also wonder how many types of butterflies and moths went extinct when Noah disturbed their cocoons. They couldn't have been taken aboard as adults, as some of them would not live long enough, and many of them need fresh flowers to drink nectar from.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 06-27-2006 8:24 PM jar has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 49 of 239 (326953)
06-27-2006 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Discreet Label
06-27-2006 8:14 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
For example take an aquarium fill it with sea water then proceed to rain on it for 40 days and 40 nights with some kind of fresh water spray, after that go ahead and taste the water and tell me how it tastes.

a school experiment writes:

Direct the students to carefully and slowly add fresh water using the eye dropper, being careful not to disturb the settled colored salt water.
.
.
.
Ask students what implications this might have in the ocean.

Salt densities are less at the surface where eye-dropper-like rain falls than at lower layers?. Make it a lot of rain and you get a layer of fresh water/heavily diluted salt water at the surface? Add less than fussy consumers and bobs-your-hydration problem solved

Also if you put a hole below the waterline of the ark, your ark starts to take on water and sink.

This thing was the size of a football field apparently (upthread). A bilge pump (animal operated) is not exactly going to tax the engineer concerned. I imagine he would make good use of the fact that it would be a post-processing semi-solid sludge he had to deal with - rather than water. It simplifies pump design.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Discreet Label, posted 06-27-2006 8:14 PM Discreet Label has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Discreet Label, posted 06-27-2006 8:46 PM iano has responded
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 06-27-2006 8:54 PM iano has responded

  
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3228 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 50 of 239 (326954)
06-27-2006 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by iano
06-27-2006 8:41 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
While you have an excellent simplification, and yes also my fault for causing you to think the simplification would cover everything. We are not actually talking about a lab situation where water can be expressed. In a way you are talking more along a wave machine in an acquarium, which definetly will not allow for the lab science experiment you are discussing. wave action alone present on the surface of the ocean would most probably be sufficient enough to distrubute salt concentration throughout the water.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 8:41 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 06-27-2006 8:52 PM Discreet Label has not yet responded
 Message 52 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 8:54 PM Discreet Label has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 51 of 239 (326956)
06-27-2006 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Discreet Label
06-27-2006 8:46 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
Salt densities are less at the surface where eye-dropper-like rain falls than at lower layers?.

Remember this eye-dropper-like rain also carved the Grand Canyon, laid down the whole geological column, split continents ...

Can anyone really believe such nonsense or are they just pulling our legs?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Discreet Label, posted 06-27-2006 8:46 PM Discreet Label has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by lfen, posted 06-28-2006 1:03 AM jar has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 52 of 239 (326957)
06-27-2006 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Discreet Label
06-27-2006 8:46 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
We have an aquarium of unknown depth, a starting salt concentration of unknown concentration, a volume of fresh water of unknown quantity and a resulting salt concentration of unknown concentration.

And less than fussy consumers. Possible.

Besides, a Rain-Collection-Devicetm the size of a football pitch may well be sufficient in itself


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Discreet Label, posted 06-27-2006 8:46 PM Discreet Label has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Discreet Label, posted 06-27-2006 9:01 PM iano has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 53 of 239 (326959)
06-27-2006 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by iano
06-27-2006 8:41 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
iano writes:

A bilge pump (animal operated) is not exactly going to tax the engineer concerned.

How much, er... horsepower do you suppose it would take to pump a big leaky tub like that? How many shifts of horses and other "kinds" of draught animals would it take to power the pumps twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week? How much extra food and water do you suppose all that hard labour would require? How much human labour do you think would be required to supervise the animals, change the teams, repair the harnesses and other equipment, etc.?


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 8:41 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 9:17 PM ringo has responded

  
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3228 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 54 of 239 (326961)
06-27-2006 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by iano
06-27-2006 8:54 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
A salt concetration that you might be proposing would be very dangerous for animals and people. Salt is not something that is excreted quickly from the body however water is. So while you are continuously drinking more water with this salt in it, the water is leaving increasing the salt concentration present in your body. Do it for a year even at low salt concentration levels you are looking at people dying from toxicfication.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 8:54 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 9:20 PM Discreet Label has not yet responded
 Message 57 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 9:36 PM Discreet Label has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 55 of 239 (326965)
06-27-2006 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
06-27-2006 8:54 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
Who said it was leaky? Collect the rain and allow to overflow that which you do not need. Read the post upthread about hibernation to reduce your need to pump to acceptable levels. Horsepower and associated complexity dependant on further hard data as to actual waste disposal requirements. Cannot compute yet.

Also design the ark to sink lower in the water under the weight of the waste matter you don't need to dump overboard in order to act as bait for the fish you are catching (aided by your Animal Powered Net Retraction Systemtm. The Tilapia (the so-called St Peters Fish - the fish who coughed up the coin) is known to eat sewage and sounds like the kind of thing that Noah would have been after

We might also suppose that the fuller effects of the fall were not so apparent then as now. Noah was doing this with a fair few centuries behind his back. He sure was smarter than the average bear. We might suppose that the animals were a lot smarter and less contrary (fallen) as well "Yo Daisy - take 5" might have been all it took by way of team changing

And the maxim that holds now would have held then. Well designed equipment doesn't need much in the way of repair. This stuff was made in Israel not in China. You are a product of the disposable age Ringo. It shows.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 06-27-2006 8:54 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Gary, posted 06-27-2006 9:37 PM iano has responded
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 06-27-2006 9:45 PM iano has responded
 Message 73 by DrJones*, posted 06-27-2006 11:02 PM iano has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 56 of 239 (326966)
06-27-2006 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Discreet Label
06-27-2006 9:01 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
Got a salt concentration in mind - all unknowns considered.

And remember the freshwater collection device mentioned previously


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Discreet Label, posted 06-27-2006 9:01 PM Discreet Label has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 57 of 239 (326970)
06-27-2006 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Discreet Label
06-27-2006 9:01 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
In fact, have we anything to suppose this vessel was seagoing at all? Float her on a OT-style Sea of Galilee and wait for fresh flood waters running down the mountainsides to lift her. Your own, personal, water tank - until the, by now, diluted seas overflow the mountains.

And plenty of fish to eat.

Location, location, location.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Discreet Label, posted 06-27-2006 9:01 PM Discreet Label has not yet responded

  
Gary
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 239 (326972)
06-27-2006 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by iano
06-27-2006 9:17 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
So, are you suggesting that animals have become less domesticated through history?

Also, I find it odd than Noah came up with all sorts of animal-powered technology which immediately afterwards disappeared from history. Isn't it simpler to just assume Noah's ark is a myth, just like the thousands of other myths from other cultures that Biblical literalists don't believe in?

Edited by Gary, : changed something about animal powered technology


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 9:17 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 9:45 PM Gary has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 59 of 239 (326976)
06-27-2006 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by iano
06-27-2006 9:17 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
iano writes:

Who said it was leaky?

450' x 75' x 45'. There are no pieces of wood that big. Therefore there were joints. Therefore there were leaks.

Collect the rain and allow to overflow that which you do not need.

It only rained for 40 days. They needed to store what they needed for the remaining 330 days. (And wooden storage tanks also leak. How much of a safety margin do you suppose they'd need?)

Read the post upthread about hibernation to reduce your need to pump to acceptable levels.

Pumping was necessary to prevent sinking. Hibernation has nothing to do with it.

Horsepower and associated complexity dependant on further hard data as to actual waste disposal requirements.

Pumping was necessary to prevent sinking. Waste disposal has nothing to do with it.

We might suppose that the animals were a lot smarter and less contrary (fallen) as well "Yo Daisy - take 5" might have been all it took by way of team changing

And the bears might have eaten porridge, sat in chairs and slept in beds....

Well designed equipment doesn't need much in the way of repair.

Don't know much about boats, do ya? :) My uncle's 40' troller required constant repair - and it was in better shape than most. You're lookin' at an ark more than a thousand times the size, with a crew of eight.

My guess is it never would have lifted off the ground. (When are we going to see that creationist prototype?)


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 9:17 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 10:00 PM ringo has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 239 (326978)
06-27-2006 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Gary
06-27-2006 9:37 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
The thread supposes an ark and I presume other items contained in the Genesis narrative. Those being a given, all kinds of lesser wonders spring (oops) to mind.

Consequences of multi-century old men knocking up design and build projects of this magnitude allow for reasonable speculation as to what else might have been possible.

When it comes to detailed facts we're all speculating here. And having some fun to boot..

When it comes to belief - well that's your own choice


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Gary, posted 06-27-2006 9:37 PM Gary has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Gary, posted 06-27-2006 10:00 PM iano has responded

  
Prev123
4
56
...
16NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019