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Author Topic:   The Flood - Animals and their minimum food requirement
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 76 of 239 (327011)
06-27-2006 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
06-27-2006 5:43 AM


Eating after they land
It isn't enough to feed the animals on the ark. They will need feed afterwards. A long lasting global flood will kill most vegetation. The seeds might survive, but it will take a while for those to germinate and grow. For grass eaters, it might only be a few weeks before there is sufficient. For those that feed on tree foliage, it will take a while longer.
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16621
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 77 of 239 (327012)
06-27-2006 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by iano
06-27-2006 11:06 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
iano writes:

Look!

Please cite your source so we can look.

According to you the ark would have sunk before anyone got thirsty or hungry enough to require all the food and water we're trying to load on board.

It's a given that the ark was a physical impossibliity. Otherwise, creationists would have built a working prototype by now.

The premise of this topic is to calculate whether or not Noah could stuff all the necessary victuals into the ark before the flood started. So far, it appears that most of the animals would not have survived the loading process.


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Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 4272 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 78 of 239 (327014)
06-27-2006 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by iano
06-27-2006 10:50 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
One of the stones in the Wall measures more than 40 feet long, and weighs 400 tons. This is the largest stone ever quarried by man - nothing near its size exists in Greece, in the pyramids, or in Manhattan. No crane today can even lift such a stone.

Are all your sources this reliable? Here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kockumskranen

That one could lift 1,500 metric tons.

As for it being the largest stone every quarried by man, well if you go to the quarries at Aswan you can still see a chunk of fully quarried granite weighing approximately 1,000 tons that was abandoned by the quarrymen after discovering a crack. I don't think ancient engineers would have been too impressed by your rock.

Oh, and a perfectly joined piece of dry-joint masonry wouldn't allow a piece of paper in an inch. Your ancient wonder doesn't meet code I'm afraid.

Get better sources. In the meantime you might want to address the topic, which isn't about the size of rocks in Israel, but about how Noah kept all those animals on board his boat with nary a pooper scooper or film crew from Animal Planet.

Edited by Wepwawet, : Adding a little clarification

Edited by Wepwawet, : Correcting spelling errors

Edited by Wepwawet, : Gary pointed out a mistake. Thanks Gary


When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research
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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 3325 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 79 of 239 (327015)
06-27-2006 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jazzns
06-27-2006 4:16 PM


Re: Can we get a number?
15mill gallons (us) of water is around 57,775 m3

to store that much water in a footy (soccer) field sized space you need a tank 100m x 57m x10m

in other words your water tank would take one entire floor of the ark to a depth of 10m The food stuffs I have no doubt would fill that majority of the remaining two floors leaving almost no space for the animals.

Anyway you cut it the ark story (as told in the bible is a prectical impossibility)


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Gary
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 239 (327018)
06-27-2006 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Wepwawet
06-27-2006 11:30 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
You might want to correct that - the article says it can lift 1500 tons, not 15,000.

I don't see what the big deal is about shoving things in between rocks. If you lay two bricks atop one another, can you shove a piece of paper in between them?


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Faith
Member
Posts: 31621
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 81 of 239 (327024)
06-28-2006 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
06-27-2006 11:16 PM


maybe a working prototype is on its way
It's a given that the ark was a physical impossibliity. Otherwise, creationists would have built a working prototype by now.

It's extremely expensive for starters, and too many specifics of the design are not known. Nevertheless many have imagined it, and here is somebody who is building a 1/5 working scale model of the ark he intends to launch:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4853890.stm

From Google Images, Noah's Ark Interior

And just for context, a history of drawings of the ark. The fourth down gets the dimensions right at least:

http://www.worldwideflood.com/general/ark_history.htm


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rgb
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 239 (327025)
06-28-2006 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by DrJones*
06-27-2006 11:02 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
DrJones* writes
quote:
Hibernation and Faith's rediculous idea about starving the animals into a coma would ensure that if any animals survived their time on the ark they'd quickly die once they got off of it. If the animals hibernated and consumed their stored energy thne they'd have to eat once they woke up, so it's either good-bye prey animals or starvation for the predators. The starve the animals into a coma idea is even more bullshit, how healthy are they goning to be at the end of the journey? They're either gonna be easy meat for the predators that just woke up from hibernation or they'll die when they try to be fruitful and multipy.

I think there is a valid point here that is being burried and ignored.

So, let us assume that the animal hibernated through the ordeal. What happens after they landed? It would have taken weeks for the seeds that survived the flood to germinate and grow into plants for the plant eaters to feast on. It would have taken the plant eaters at least another year to pump out babies. In the mean time, were the carnivores expected to sit there and wait while the herbivores recovered their populations?


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Faith
Member
Posts: 31621
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 239 (327026)
06-28-2006 12:39 AM


Water
Rainwater is certainly not salty, but as I've posted a few times recently, it is also thought that the original oceans were not salty either, since the antediluvian world was watered by "mist." The idea is that salt is leached from the sides of the continents, and from river runoff, into the oceans, which is supposedly increasing in saltiness. Also there was supposedly just one continental mass at the time of the flood, which separated as a result of breaching of the sea floor by the "fountains of the deep" (which also started volcanic activity at the bottom of the oceans), and after the separation of the continents there was of course much more surface to be eroded and leached from.

So it is not inconceivable that ocean water was drinkable.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : grammar


    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31621
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 239 (327027)
06-28-2006 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by rgb
06-28-2006 12:37 AM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
I think there is a valid point here that is being burried and ignored.

So, let us assume that the animal hibernated through the ordeal. What happens after they landed? It would have taken weeks for the seeds that survived the flood to germinate and grow into plants for the plant eaters to feast on. It would have taken the plant eaters at least another year to pump out babies. In the mean time, were the carnivores expected to sit there and wait while the herbivores recovered their populations?

The idea is that if many animals hibernated, that would cut down on the total amount of food and upkeep required, not that the need for food and upkeep would be completely eliminated. What you have described is what would have been the situation in any case, hibernation or no hibernation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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lfen
Member (Idle past 2840 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 85 of 239 (327030)
06-28-2006 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
06-27-2006 8:52 PM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
Can anyone really believe such nonsense or are they just pulling our legs?

I know it just boggles my mind, but then I think about the televangelists and faith healers who have ripped off so many enthusiastic believers in so many ways, and I am forced to admit that people will believe the most insane stuff!

The story is so clearly a myth and so obviously sourced from the Babylonian flood myth and yet ...

And they couldn't have begun to get all the animals on board and yet we are actually discussing if any of them could have survived? It seems to me more and more the brain is only with great difficulty able to at times function rationally.

lfen


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rgb
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 239 (327031)
06-28-2006 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
06-28-2006 12:43 AM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
First of all, it wasn't my idea.

DrJones was pointing out what would happen after the flood when all the animal came out of hibernation. The plants needed weeks to regrow for the plant eaters. The plant eaters needed several years to produce enough plant eaters for the meat eaters. Did the meat eaters have to wait several years before they could start hunting or did they hibernate for several years?


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Faith
Member
Posts: 31621
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 87 of 239 (327032)
06-28-2006 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by rgb
06-28-2006 1:13 AM


Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!
Then I should have answered Dr. Jones I guess. But the point was just that hibernation is a completely different subject from the problem of food after they left the ark.
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16621
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 88 of 239 (327033)
06-28-2006 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
06-28-2006 12:29 AM


Re: maybe a working prototype is on its way
Faith writes:

It's extremely expensive for starters....

I figure you could make a good start for $150 million or so. That's only a fraction of the haul from the Great Creationist Video Racket.

... too many specifics of the design are not known.

Not according to Answers In Genesis:

quote:
Total safety index, defined as the weighted average of three relative safety performances, showed that the Ark had a superior level of safety in high winds and waves compared with the other hull forms studied. The voyage limit of the Ark, estimated on the basis of modern passenger ships, criteria, revealed that it could have navigated through waves higher than 30 metres.

They seem to know enough about ark design to proclaim it "safe". Didn't you get the memo?

... here is somebody who is building a 1/5 working scale model of the ark he intends to launch

1/5 scale is a joke. That's only 90 feet long. Thousands of wooden ships that big have been built. Unless he's going to stock it with 1/5 scale animals and 1/5 scale food, it's utterly irrelevant.

Either build a full-size prototype or stop pretending there is any science behind your fantasies.

Edited by Ringo, : Removed superfluous quotation mark.


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lfen
Member (Idle past 2840 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 89 of 239 (327036)
06-28-2006 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by ringo
06-28-2006 1:29 AM


Re: maybe a working prototype is on its way
Either build a full-size prototype or stop pretending there is any science behind your fantasies.

You have my sympathies but I just know it wouldn't work that way. If someone did build a full size ark and it promptly sank?! That would be taken by the faithful as proof that the ark was a divine creation and Noah was inspired in his building of it so that even modern man in all his pride, knowledge, and technology can't replicate the ark. True believers will just be confirmed in their faith either way.

Once you enter the magic of circular reasoning everything works to support your faith.

lfen


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15033
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 90 of 239 (327037)
06-28-2006 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by iano
06-27-2006 10:50 PM


Quarried Stones OT
Your site is wrong to say that it is the "largest stone ever quarried by man".

The Baalbek site in Lebanon includes 3 stones weighing nearly 800 tons apiece, and a larger stone is abandoned in the quarry, nearby. These were placed there by the Romans - and Herod as an "ally" of Rome, would also have had access to Roman stone moving technology.

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/baalbek.html

Tourist sites are not always reliable - and religioss apologetic sites, talking about sites or objects of religiosu significance (as your site is) are even less trustworthy..


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