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Author Topic:   Has EvC changed your beliefs?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 31 of 223 (327106)
06-28-2006 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by iano
06-28-2006 8:58 AM


quote:
1. If God does not exist, trancendant, objective values of good and evil do not exist
2. Evil does exist
3. Therefore objective values exist and some things are really, basically, fundamentally bad.
4 Therefore God exists
It's not a very good argument because the first premise is far from obviously true, and I can't think of any good argument for it (I can think of decent arguments against it). Of course if you really think it's a good argument go ahead and start a topic to discuss it.

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 32 of 223 (327107)
06-28-2006 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by iano
06-28-2006 9:32 AM


Iano writes:
It was a logical proof Ikabod
No it was not.
Claiming
1. If God does not exist, trancendant, objective values of good and evil do not exist
2. Evil does exist
3. Therefore objective values exist and some things are really, basically, fundamentally bad.
4 Therefore God exists
as a proof is rediculous. Evil could exist with out god. Indead, from you logic evil would not be part of the world if there was no xian god.
I vote for a world with no evil and no xian god.

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 Message 30 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 9:32 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Adminnemooseus, posted 06-28-2006 10:11 AM Larni has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 33 of 223 (327113)
06-28-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Larni
06-28-2006 9:50 AM


TOPIC DRIFT - Objective values of good and evil a valid topic, but not in this topic
I posted this as a reply to Larni, but it applies to all involved in this topic diversion.
Find a better place for that side topic, be it an existing topic or a "Proposed New Topic" (Please, look for an existing topic first).
Going to have to close this topic for a while if this topic diversion continues - You all have been warned.
Adminnemooseus

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 223 (327119)
06-28-2006 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by iano
06-28-2006 8:55 AM


"Purposeless? Fine so long as I can be sure of it" or something like that.
That's it exactly.
Are you getting closer to that objective or further away to your mind - if what I suppose of you accurately reflects your position
No, if anything I'm more confused.

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 Message 25 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 8:55 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 35 of 223 (327121)
06-28-2006 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by robinrohan
06-28-2006 10:19 AM


That's it exactly.
It took one to know one
No, if anything I'm more confused.
Good (in a well-intentioned way)

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 36 of 223 (327125)
06-28-2006 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Adminnemooseus
06-28-2006 10:11 AM


Re: TOPIC DRIFT - Objective values of good and evil a valid topic, but not in this topic
Sorry 'bout that Adminnemooseus.
Will keep myself on track.

This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 37 of 223 (327126)
06-28-2006 10:38 AM


Please - Fewer messages, more substance per message
We seem to really be heading towards trading one-liners of little real substance.
Please look at your messages, past and upcoming. Is there really any content in them? If not, don't post them.
Feel the need to reply to the moderator message? Take it to the "General..." topic, link below.
Adminnemooseus
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Change ID.

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Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 38 of 223 (327128)
06-28-2006 10:46 AM


One of the aspects of my beliefs that have changed from comming here is my belief that there is an 'absolute'. Even though I am a dyed in the wool scientist I have re-learned through discusions about logic that one cannot prove anything.
It could be said then that coming to EvC has shown me that some sort of supernatural entity could exist simple because there is a very slight chance it is true.
That the nature of the devin entity is known by any one of us is that minute chance made even more minute.

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 11:04 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 43 by Omnivorous, posted 06-28-2006 11:52 AM Larni has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 39 of 223 (327129)
06-28-2006 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by iano
06-28-2006 8:58 AM


Sorry... off topic.. Deleted
Edited by Creavolution, : OT

This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 40 of 223 (327135)
06-28-2006 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Larni
06-28-2006 10:46 AM


Dr Living Stone I presume
It could be said then that coming to EvC has shown me that some sort of supernatural entity could exist simple because there is a very slight chance it is true.
God exists or he doesn't. There is no slight chance either way. The slightness you are referring to reflects, I suggest, the level of your own convictions at this point in time - which has no bearing on the actual chances. The "level of chance" might be increased slightly were you to consider that the tools which can be applied in order to lever the supernatural rock up a bit further are not those which you are used to handling so adroitly when it comes to peering under the rock of the natural world.
One might accept that the 'small chance' is a function of ones own inability/unwillingness to examine in a way appropriate to that which is being examined. The bird watcher who crashes through the woods screaming "Is there any lesser spotted widgerydoos here!!" will not meet in success.
What am I looking for?
How might I find it?
What tools might I employ?
If you say "I don't know" then welcome to the world of the Pioneer

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by CK, posted 06-28-2006 11:12 AM iano has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 41 of 223 (327139)
06-28-2006 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by iano
06-28-2006 11:04 AM


Re: Dr Living Stone I presume
Iano writes:
God exists or he doesn't.
Or he did exist or he's absence (he might have got bored and puffed himself out of existance, he might have decided to leave this universe alone and go "somewhere else").
Sure we know that's not the case with the christian godhead concept (if he/it was real) but Larni is talking about a "supernatural entity" not specific about the christian god concept. So those are prefectly valid options to consider.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 11:04 AM iano has replied

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 42 of 223 (327159)
06-28-2006 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by CK
06-28-2006 11:12 AM


Re: Dr Living Stone I presume
God exists or he doesn't.
Or he did exist or he's absence (he might have got bored and puffed himself out of existance, he might have decided to leave this universe alone and go "somewhere else").
If he is absent he exists, if he puffed himself out of existance he doesn't exist.
So those are prefectly valid options to consider.
They are indeed. As the quote up top suggests

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 43 of 223 (327160)
06-28-2006 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Larni
06-28-2006 10:46 AM


Larni writes:
It could be said then that coming to EvC has shown me that some sort of supernatural entity could exist simple because there is a very slight chance it is true.
Ditto, Larni.
My time at EvC has made me a dyed-in-the-wool agnostic, a position I long claimed without quite maintaining sufficient doubt on both sides of the question. I still see no evidence to prompt any belief in a god, but I have become more acutely aware that the absence of evidence...etc.

This message is a reply to:
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thekai
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 223 (327233)
06-28-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
06-26-2006 8:28 PM


worried
The discussions at EVC has not changed my beliefs, in fact it only helped solidify it. Though some posts do make me worry about how fanatical and blinded some people can be about religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 06-26-2006 8:28 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 103 by Larni, posted 07-01-2006 7:36 PM thekai has not replied
 Message 104 by Larni, posted 07-01-2006 7:37 PM thekai has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 45 of 223 (327245)
06-28-2006 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by thekai
06-28-2006 2:36 PM


Re: worried
The discussions at EVC has not changed my beliefs, in fact it only helped solidify it. Though some posts do make me worry about how fanatical and blinded some people can be about religion.
I heartily concur. Religion...a curse on its house

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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