Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8951 total)
368 online now:
DrJones*, Faith, GDR, marc9000 (4 members, 364 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 866,896 Year: 21,932/19,786 Month: 495/1,834 Week: 495/315 Day: 91/82 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Let us reason together.
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 152 (32310)
02-15-2003 1:02 AM


I have looked at the site. The first question I would ask is, "How could there be life without a designer?" Its like looking at a building. Was the building thrown together by an explosion in a brick factory only using time and chance, or was there a desginer who planned everything ahead of time? I won't cut & paste if you without a link explain to me what evolution is? How you have interpreted it? Please give me the best evidence for evolution and I will give you the best evidence for creation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 02-16-2003 10:21 PM drummachine has not yet responded
 Message 48 by David unfamous, posted 02-17-2003 7:00 AM drummachine has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 152 (32394)
02-16-2003 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by drummachine
02-15-2003 1:02 AM


quote:
I have looked at the site.

This is your last chance to achieve any kind of credability here, drum.

Go to the site and learn the bare basics of what scientists say evolution is, and come back here and tell us what you think they are.

Otherwise, I am not interested in putting any effort into replying to your posts.

Don't you agree that it is reasonable for you to understand what it is you are denying? This is not rhetorical. A yes or no answer would be appreciated.

quote:
The first question I would ask is, "How could there be life without a designer?" Its like looking at a building. Was the building thrown together by an explosion in a brick factory only using time and chance, or was there a desginer who planned everything ahead of time?

The reason we know that buildings are designed is because we have experience with buildings and where they come from. We have abundant evidence of exactly who and how, many, many buildings were designed; people made them.

It is utterly inappropriate to compare living things with human-designed artifacts.

Inanimate objects are not subject to Biological Evolution, so the way they come about is completely different.

quote:
I won't cut & paste if you without a link explain to me what evolution is? How you have interpreted it?

Somehow I feel as though I am being tricked into doing your thinking and summarizing for you, but here goes...

Simply put, evolution is the change in a population's gene pool over time.

Organisms are not genetically itentical to their parents through mutation. This results in genetic variation in a population.

Through natural selection, gene flow, sexual selection, genetic drift, and other mechanisms, certain traits are favored in a certain environment and these proliferate among the population. If the environment changes, these traits may or may not continue to be beneficial, so different traits may become more beneficial, changing the population again.

quote:
Please give me the best evidence for evolution and I will give you the best evidence for creation.

This evidence for creation is most eagerly anticipated.

Is it going to be scientific evidence? If so, can you provide a scientific Theory of Creation?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by drummachine, posted 02-15-2003 1:02 AM drummachine has not yet responded

David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 152 (32416)
02-17-2003 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by drummachine
02-15-2003 1:02 AM


Its like looking at a building. Was the building thrown together by an explosion in a brick factory only using time and chance, or was there a desginer who planned everything ahead of time?

This is a common argument, but flawed. The user takes a pre-concieved creation, and asks the possibility of it occuring through a pre-concieved act - car from hurricane in junkyard, house from explosion in brickyard etc. As we know how to design a house, and how to build one, we know such devastating acts do not produce our target design. The analogy is purposely misleading.

Yet if an explosion were to happen in a brick factory, you'd likley see a mess of bricks and human remains strewn about the vicinity. Now if you were to calculate what the probability of each brick/stone/particle/atom being in the exact state you find them in the aftermath, the odds would be overwhelmingly against it.

So, would you then conclude the aftermath of said explosion in a brick factory was intelligently designed due to near impossible odds?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by drummachine, posted 02-15-2003 1:02 AM drummachine has not yet responded

drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 152 (32502)
02-17-2003 8:08 PM


So do you believe that animals change into other animals? Evolution is not science. Its a belief. So called scientific dates cannot work. Looking at a dinosaur bone or whatever it doesn't have a little tag on it saying, "Hi! I'm 10 million years old." Look at the heavens. Then look at a human being. Look at a single cell in the body. The living God clearly says in scripture, "The fool says in his heart there is no God." He says come to me, not us saying to God come to me. There is so much evidence of the creator that He says we are without excuse. It truly has to do with our hearts. Choosing to believe that we evolved by chance is not correct. Its like saying, "Look at earth. It evolved by chance." Even though there can be only one truth we still believe what we want. I have. Its like saying, "I'm going to jump out of a window. I know the truth is I'll hit the ground, though I believe I will not." If God is creator that means were accountable to Him. If not, there is no absolute. You can do what you want. We love sin because we all have sinned. The flesh. If Jesus Christ is the way, truth and life He says we have to repent to receive the eternal blessing and inheritance. I was the same way. Living for this temporary life, not the eternal. The eternal grace, love and peace we can have in Jesus Christ is greater than anything else.

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by John, posted 02-17-2003 10:26 PM drummachine has not yet responded
 Message 51 by David unfamous, posted 02-18-2003 8:03 AM drummachine has not yet responded
 Message 52 by nator, posted 02-18-2003 8:13 AM drummachine has not yet responded

John
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 152 (32516)
02-17-2003 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by drummachine
02-17-2003 8:08 PM


quote:
Looking at a dinosaur bone or whatever it doesn't have a little tag on it saying, "Hi! I'm 10 million years old."

Of course not, dinosaurs were long gone by then.

Where do you think those dates originate?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

[This message has been edited by John, 02-17-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by drummachine, posted 02-17-2003 8:08 PM drummachine has not yet responded

David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 152 (32537)
02-18-2003 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by drummachine
02-17-2003 8:08 PM


So do you believe that animals change into other animals?
Do you believe your parents 'changed' into you? Using the word 'changed' is an overly simplistic term that shows your lack of understand of evolution.

Evolution is not science.
Geology is a science. Chemistry is a science. Biology is a science. Paleontology is a science. Those who work in these fields have independently contributed their knowledge and findings to science as a whole. These independent findings overwhelmingly point toward one theory: evolution. A theory that has had pieces of the jigsaw puzzle snuggly slotted in over the last 150 odd years.

You can call evolution what you like, but science put it there.

Its a belief.
It's a concusion.

So called scientific dates cannot work.
Explain what you mean.

Looking at a dinosaur bone or whatever it doesn't have a little tag on it saying, "Hi! I'm 10 million years old."
If it were that simple you could make it as a paleontologist, but it's not. That's why science exists, it's our continual quest for knowledge and understanding.

Look at the heavens. Then look at a human being. Look at a single cell in the body.
Without science, you certainly couldn't look at a cell. In fact you wouldn't know what a cell was or that it existed.

The living God clearly says in scripture, "The fool says in his heart there is no God." He says come to me, not us saying to God come to me.
Correction: In the Bible it reads that. I could just as easily write down 'The fool takes an extremely old book too literally.'

There is so much evidence of the creator that He says we are without excuse.
You're using circular reasoning:
1. I believe in God.
2. I believe The bible is the word of God.
3. The Bible says God created life.
4. Life exists.
5. Therefore Life is proof of God.

It truly has to do with our hearts.
What, the blood pumping muscle in our chests?

Choosing to believe that we evolved by chance is not correct.
Choosing to ignore all the evidence is not correct.

Its like saying, "Look at earth. It evolved by chance."
Earth itself isn't covered by the ToE. It's not biological.

Even though there can be only one truth we still believe what we want. I have.
What one truth is that then?

Its like saying, "I'm going to jump out of a window. I know the truth is I'll hit the ground, though I believe I will not."
Is that your truth? Don't do it!

If God is creator that means were accountable to Him. If not, there is no absolute. You can do what you want.
Rubbish. Law and order stop people doing what they want, not religion.

We love sin because we all have sinned. The flesh. If Jesus Christ is the way, truth and life He says we have to repent to receive the eternal blessing and...
Yawn. You're preaching again. Zzzzz...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by drummachine, posted 02-17-2003 8:08 PM drummachine has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 52 of 152 (32538)
02-18-2003 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by drummachine
02-17-2003 8:08 PM


A reply to message #47 if you please, drum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by drummachine, posted 02-17-2003 8:08 PM drummachine has not yet responded

drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 152 (32695)
02-19-2003 8:01 PM


Schrafinator or any others,

If you would please answer these questions for me I will deffinently answer your questions. Thank you.

Where did the space for the universe come from?

Where did matter come from?

Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

How did matter get so perfectly organized?

Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?

When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?

When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kindsince this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)

How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?

When, where, why, and how did:
Single-celled plants become multi-celled? (Where are the two and three-celled intermediates?)
Single-celled animals evolve?
Fish change to amphibians?
Amphibians change to reptiles?
Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes,reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!)

How did the intermediate forms live?

When, where, why, how, and from what did:
Whales evolve?
Sea horses evolve?
bats evolve?
Eyes evolve?

Ears evolve?

Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?

Which evolved first how, and how long, did it work without the others)?
The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)?
The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce?
The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs?
DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts?
The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose?
The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants?
The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones?
The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system?
The immune system or the need for it?

There are many thousands of examples of symbiosis that defy an evolutionary explanation. Why must we teach students that evolution is the only explanation for these relationships?

How would evolution explain mimicry? Did the plants and animals develop mimicry by chance, by their intelligent choice, or by design?

When, where, why, and how did man evolve feelings? Love, mercy, guilt, etc. would never evolve in the theory of evolution.

*How did photosynthesis evolve?

*How did thought evolve?

*How did flowering plants evolve, and from that?

*What kind of evolutionist are you? Why are you not one of the other eight or ten kinds?

What would you have said fifty years ago if I told you I had a living coelacanth in my aquarium?

*Is there one clear prediction of macroevolution that has proved true?

*What is so scientific about the idea of hydrogen as becoming human?

*Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?

After you have answered the preceding questions, please look carefully at your answers and thoughtfully consider the following questions.

Are you sure your answers are reasonable, right, and scientifically provable, or do you just believe that it may have happened the way you have answered? (Do these answers reflect your religion or your science?)

Do your answers show more or less faith than the person who says, "God must have designed it"?

Is it possible that an unseen Creator designed this universe? If God is excluded at the beginning of the discussion by your definition of science, how could it be shown that He did create the universe if He did?

Is it wise and fair to present the theory of evolution to students as fact?

What is the end result of a belief in evolution (lifestyle, society, attitude about others, eternal destiny, etc.)?

Do people accept evolution because of the following factors?
It is all they have been taught.
They like the freedom from God (no moral absolutes, etc.).
They are bound to support the theory for fear of losing their job or status or grade point average.
They are too proud to admit they are wrong.
Evolution is the only philosophy that can be used to justify their political agenda.

Should we continue to use outdated, disproved, questionable, or inconclusive evidences to support the theory of evolution because we don’t have a suitable substitute (Piltdown man, recapitulation, archaeopteryx, Lucy, Java man, Neanderthal man, horse evolution, vestigial organs, etc.)?

Should parents be allowed to require that evolution not be taught as fact in their school system unless equal time is given to other theories of origins (like divine creation)?

What are you risking if you are wrong? As one of my debate opponents said, "Either there is a God or there is not. Both possibilities are frightening."

Why are many evolutionists afraid of the idea of creationism being presented in public schools? If we are not supposed to teach religion in schools, then why not get evolution out of the textbooks? It is just a religious worldview.

Aren’t you tired of faith in a system that cannot be true? Wouldn’t it be great to know the God who made you, and to accept His love and forgiveness?

Would you be interested, if I showed you from the Bible, how to have your sins forgiven and how to know for sure that you are going to Heaven?


Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Mike Holland, posted 02-19-2003 8:55 PM drummachine has not yet responded
 Message 55 by Karl, posted 02-20-2003 3:43 AM drummachine has not yet responded
 Message 56 by Satcomm, posted 02-20-2003 12:27 PM drummachine has not yet responded
 Message 57 by nator, posted 02-20-2003 2:09 PM drummachine has not yet responded
 Message 60 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 02-21-2003 9:01 AM drummachine has not yet responded

Mike Holland
Member (Idle past 17 days)
Posts: 168
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 54 of 152 (32702)
02-19-2003 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by drummachine
02-19-2003 8:01 PM


Dear Drummachine,
All these glorious questions are exactly the questions that science has been trying to answer for centuries. And, on the whole, it has succeeded.

The most basic questions, such as why the universe exists, and why the laws of the universe should be as they are, have not yet been answered (and possibly never will be) because science must start with what we can observe here on earth, and slowly build up from the evidence. All sciences which deal with the past (astronomy, cosmology, evolution, geology, etc) have the problem that we cannot travel back in time to prove that the scientific scenarios are correct, but their theories are built on and consistent with what we observe in laboratories and in the world today.

Question 1: Where did the space for the universe come from?
Answer: it came from the singularity which expanded to form the universe.
Obviously, this answer explains nothing. It requires a course in relativity, cosmology, string theory, inflation etc to begin to make any sense.

But why should we answer your questions? Some of us could answer some of them 'off the cuff', but many would require extensive research to extract the required details, quotes and evidence. You can do the research yourself. But you would have to evaluate the evidence, and not just reject everything you read. You might learn something in the process.

All you give as an alternative is 'God did it'. But you provide no evidence for God, you do not say why he did it, or when. You only raise a hundred more questions. And then you start preaching at us.
Please just answer one question - 'why did God create the universe', and then provide some evidence for your answer.

This is a forum, not a pulpit. So please provide some arguments or evidence for discussion.

Mike.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by drummachine, posted 02-19-2003 8:01 PM drummachine has not yet responded

Karl
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 152 (32716)
02-20-2003 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by drummachine
02-19-2003 8:01 PM


Drummachine - I replied to your cut'n'paste job from Werner Gitt - why not address my criticisms of it?

Or do you not actually do debate?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by drummachine, posted 02-19-2003 8:01 PM drummachine has not yet responded

Satcomm
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 152 (32735)
02-20-2003 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by drummachine
02-19-2003 8:01 PM


drummachine,

I suggest fewer words, sharpened points, and more focused questions.

Proverbs 17, verse 27:

(KJV) He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.

(NLT) A truly wise person uses few words; a person with understanding is even-tempered.

Proverbs 16, verse 21:

(KJV) The wise in heart shall be called prudent: and the sweetness of the lips increaseth learning.

(NLT) The wise are known for their understanding, and instruction is appreciated if it's well presented.

There's no need to prove foolishness through tactical questions, as it's obvious to those with understanding.

------------------
What is intelligence without wisdom?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by drummachine, posted 02-19-2003 8:01 PM drummachine has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 57 of 152 (32742)
02-20-2003 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by drummachine
02-19-2003 8:01 PM


quote:
Schrafinator or any others,

If you would please answer these questions for me I will deffinently answer your questions. Thank you.


No, I won't.

See, I don't believe you when you say you will answer my questions, because you haven't commented on or answered any of my replies to you.

I have acted in good faith, answering the specific questions about evolution that you wished to have answered, and you simply ignore my efforts and strongly resist actually talking about science and evidence.

I don't think you have ever had any intentions of engaging in honest debate, so I am not going to make any further efforts unless you can show me that you are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by drummachine, posted 02-19-2003 8:01 PM drummachine has not yet responded

drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 152 (32789)
02-20-2003 10:54 PM


Schrafinator,

FROM THE EVOLUTION SITE
Evolution is like a game of rock, paper, scissors... which one is best?

Thats terrible. It sounds like the origin of prejudice! Survival of the fittest. I believe there are changes, but where is the evidence for new information in a new species? 160 million years ago dinosaurs ruled the earth? Where is the evidence of this observation?

FROM THE EVOLUTION SITE
When bony, muscular fins evolved, it was inevitable that the fish would use this ability to eventually go up onto dry land to exploit that untapped food resource. A million years might have passed with this species making only brief, occasional excursions onto land. Then came amphibians, with moist skins who still had to lay their eggs in water, then reptiles who could further colonize the land with watertight skins and watertight eggs-- what an important step that was. Then mammals and birds both arose from reptiles, able to produce heat internally, but the birds (and two species of mammals) continued to lay eggs. All this would be impossible to witness within the whole history of human life. But it's not impossible for this to happen in, say, hundreds of millions of years

Sir, where is the evidence?

Crocodiles haven't evolved much in the last 200 million years, but that's rare to find a species so well-fitted that it does not change over time. In this sense, nearly every fossil ever uncovered represents a transition to another species (except those species which resulted in extinction).

Sir, where is the evidence?

For evolution to take place, hundreds of millions of years must pass. Radiometric Dating methods ("Carbon 14 Dating") - are the means by which we know that the earth is incredibly old. The claims that these methods are unreliable is untrue.

How can you date a dinosaur fossil? Were you there? In fact there are over 500 "living fossils". Animals that are still living.

The theory of evolution does not address the issue of God, either positively or negatively. The theory of evolution, like any scientific theory, certainly does not need the intervention of a deity, and there are many evolutionists who choose not to speculate about the involvement of God, for a number of reasons-- chiefly among them that there is no evidence to support such a notion, and scientific theories by definition need to be constructed on purely mechanistic, physical processes. On the other hand, there are evolutionists who choose to view the theory as the method by which God placed life on this planet. As this is America, they have the right to believe such. The decision whether or not to incorporate God into evolution is a personal one, based on prior beliefs.

Is it possible that the Bible might explain the origin of life?

Schrafinator,

I believe the greatest question I have is how could we just come from nothing without design? Scientifically it just does not make sense. In the beginning were the particles? Maybe you have a lot of anger from things in your life. I have. Most of my life. Things that happened from a parent or just things that have made you wonder how there could be a God of love? I dont know. I struggled with that my whole life and it just was destroying me. I have such peace now in Christ. Thats why I believe God created everything perfect. He said it was very good. When He created man He had to make him with the ability for good or evil. Man turning from God brought death into the world. Christ died to free us. Another thing we could talk about is Bible prophecy if your interested. I believe there are so many things in life we can never comprehend. I believe God made the Bible so we could understand. Think about it. If He explained everything we would have a infinite amount of books. I would get a little frustrated. Wouldn't you? I believe the King(not a religious system) has spoken and He has such a wonderful eternal plan for everyone who will come to Him with a humble, broken and repentant spirit and heart. Maybe just try it. Search for Him with all your heart and you will find Him.


Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Karl, posted 02-21-2003 3:15 AM drummachine has not yet responded
 Message 61 by nator, posted 02-22-2003 10:59 AM drummachine has not yet responded

Karl
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 152 (32799)
02-21-2003 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by drummachine
02-20-2003 10:54 PM


Drummachine - do you think you could give your internal stylus a nudge - it seems to be stuck on the record.

There's a good lad.

Your posts are all the same.

1) Total ignoring of the evidence that you have had presented

2) Whine of "where's the evidence". You ask for evidence of early amphibians. So what is Acanthostega? What is Ichthyostega? What of Panderichthys? They are the evidence. Now tell us why they do not represent a transitional series.

3) Totally irrelevant tacked on evangelism of the "Oh feck, someone's about to embarrass every thinking Christian within earshot" type usually reserved for men with funny haircuts, banners and black floppy bibles outside Woolworths on Saturday mornings.

Now, how about addressing my criticism of your cut'n'paste Werner Gitt job? Or do you concede that I have indeed demolished it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by drummachine, posted 02-20-2003 10:54 PM drummachine has not yet responded

Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 1554 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 60 of 152 (32805)
02-21-2003 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by drummachine
02-19-2003 8:01 PM


Hello Drummachine,
Answering your total list of, I believe plagerized, questions would take too long but one of them is easy.

Homochirality. The incidence of homochirality appears to be a kinetic and not thermodynamic phenomina. I have had to move offices and so no longer have the papers here with me but I have to papers at home and will try to post them tonight if I have time. Essentially the rate of formation of homochiral chains of polynucleotides is slightly faster than the rate of formation of heteronucleotides, probably due to increased stability from stacking interactions. This faster kinetic rate of formation of homonucleotide chains means that over a reasonably short period of time that the homonucleotide chains will predominate. The reason for the predominance of L- vs the R- forms appears to be due to a very slight advantage in this form in the kinetic race as well.

I find it interesting that these papers are a couple of years old and yet the creationists, and people that claim to be in creation "science", have never cited them. They just go back and site the old thermo arguements. Not to mention that this is pre-biotic chemistry and has nothing really to do with evolutionary theory, another error constantly made by creationists. Hope that this answers one of your questions, although I rather doubt that it will.

------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by drummachine, posted 02-19-2003 8:01 PM drummachine has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019