Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 81 (8905 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-19-2019 10:24 PM
26 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 849,852 Year: 4,889/19,786 Month: 1,011/873 Week: 367/376 Day: 44/116 Hour: 4/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123
4
56
...
15NextFF
Author Topic:   Has EvC changed your beliefs?
Mespo
Member (Idle past 990 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 46 of 223 (327251)
06-28-2006 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by iano
06-28-2006 3:17 PM


Not Worried - Just Amused
Kind of like watching the World Cup. Passion, energy, strategy, tactics, and SEVERAL yellow cards. :)

So, my question to you all is...

Can you walk off the playing field and still share a brew in the same pub?

********
As for me, I've gotten the equivalent of many semester hours in Geology, Physics, Astronomy and Theology, to name a few.
But my belief system remains... "We are Star Stuff" [Carl Sagan]

If you want to be a Light unto the World, you have to "lighten" up.

(:raig


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 3:17 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 6:15 PM Mespo has not yet responded

    
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 223 (327254)
06-28-2006 4:00 PM


other changes
I can add some other changes that occurred with me as a result of time spent on evc:

1. I read up some on evolution. I read through Mayr's "What Evolution Is," for example, so I know more about it now.

2. I found out that genetics is a mighty complicated subject.

3. I think less of the liberal version of Christianity than I used to. It seems now to me like a watered-down, sentimental version of life.

4. I'm more precise about my own version of "nihilism."


Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Heathen, posted 06-28-2006 4:02 PM robinrohan has responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1043
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 48 of 223 (327255)
06-28-2006 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by robinrohan
06-28-2006 4:00 PM


Re: other changes
robinrohan writes:

my own version of "nihilism."


Will you be calling it "Rohanism"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2006 4:00 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2006 4:28 PM Heathen has not yet responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 223 (327262)
06-28-2006 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Heathen
06-28-2006 4:02 PM


Re: other changes
Will you be calling it "Rohanism"?

That sounds a little egotistical, and I, being of exemplary moral character, cannot afford to be egotistical.

iano has called it "Robinihilism."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Heathen, posted 06-28-2006 4:02 PM Heathen has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12241
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 50 of 223 (327269)
06-28-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
06-26-2006 8:28 PM


Questioning my sanity
Larni writes:

Has the content of this forum made you re evaluate your position in any way (strengthening or altering your beliefs)?

Yes.

I was and still am a definite believer in the reality of a living and active Spirit of God. I have seen too much evidence of the workings of this Spirit both in my life and the lives of others.

After coming to EvC, I learned several things, however.

  • I can't prove my belief or my concept of God and, in fact, no longer try and do so.

  • Scientists and atheists are usually nicer people than many of the Christians whom I have encountered. This paradox validates my belief that there is some sort of a spiritual war in the human condition.
    I have stopped trying to externalize this war, and am currently working out my own beliefs in regards to it.

  • Jar and Ringo have expanded my view as to the belief paradigm of the Christian (or any other seeker of truth) worldview.
    I am not convinced that everyone is "saved" in the sense of having God within them, but I now allow that there is no exclusive club.

    I believe that God acts and wills within us...so it is not entirely our own behavior that shapes our effort.

  • I believe that God works within everyone, however, and that there are many more aspects to belief than just the Bible. Even though I dont believe that all religions are equally relativistic and the same in value, God reaches all of us the way that only He can. Its up to us to respond to that inner stirring or to explain it away.

    Either way, the responsibility lies with us. He has already done His part! :)

    Finally, I respect a lot of you more (and your belief paradigms) through having met you and engaged you in online discussions.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Larni, posted 06-26-2006 8:28 PM Larni has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 105 by Larni, posted 07-01-2006 7:42 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 115 by ramoss, posted 07-01-2006 8:38 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
  • Jazzns
    Member (Idle past 2016 days)
    Posts: 2657
    From: A Better America
    Joined: 07-23-2004


    Message 51 of 223 (327271)
    06-28-2006 4:51 PM


    My Evolution at EvC
    I have learned many things both lurking and participating at EvC

    Three big general things come to mind

    1. Being able to tap the knowledge of some experts in fields that I just don't bump elbows with on a daily basis has vastly improved my understanding of a number of really interesting topics ranging from science to theology. Nothing has been more exciting at times than reading some of the well thought out posts of Bill Birkland, JonF, rox, Mathummus, RAZD, Omni, Queztzal, others I may be forgetting and the theological perspectives of jar, arach, and Brian especially. Every time I start getting bored of this place I find another opportunity to learn something that I may not have in my daily life. Even today as many of the topics have become more ethereal since most of the YECs we see have retreated to the abstract (crazy QM, alternate universes/timelines, alternate rules of the universe, etc) I am continually surprised at the things I am able to pick up. EvC is like the discovery channel but interactive. =)

    2. I came to the debate unsure of my position on evolution and creation and even my own Christianity. I am no longer in doubt about any of those issues. In my deepest and strongest faith I asked God to put me on a path toward the truth whatever the truth is. Coming from a "literalist" family and a "literalist" church, putting that doctrine to the fire I learned that those who claim to be literalists are actually not. More is read into and abstractly interpreted in order to make the first books of the Bible "real" that you can no longer call it literal. To be a biblical literalist you have to accept that the Bible has conflicts because LITERALLY it does. Some of the things in the Bible are stories and that is okay. I could have let this knowledge ruin my faith but I realized that I had found God independent of the Bible and really independent of the church. All the church did was guide doctrine and I realize looking back at my search that I had continually abandoned the church for all the reasons that I can more concretely define now. I tried being a Moslem, I tried being an atheist, and I wasn't really interested in any of the other religions I investigated. I always found myself coming back to Christ but somehow feeling disenfranchised from the church. In the end God might be all in my head but I can only go on what I feel is real and I feel that God is real.

    From what I have learned from those who have gone out and investigated it is that the history of the church is tied closely to the history of the Bible. Each book in the canon has a unique history and it is only because at some point that some "inspired" humans decided that these are the word of God has the religion pushed that into doctrine. It is for that reason I have went out to look about the history of books that the church harps on such as Revelations. So much church doctrine is built around what sounds very similar to mythology you get from greek and roman culture. Based on what I have learned about the history of the Book of Revelations I have rejected it. I would not have even bothered to critically investigate it had I never experienced the level of scholarship that many put into examining the Bible on this forum. I had no idea that such an account of historical and academic information about the Bible even existed although I do feel stupid sometimes for not assuming that did. Why wouldn't there be a plethora of information about one of if not the most influential books in the world. The community that I have experienced here at EvC has simply changed the way I think at a fundamental level. This was not school. This was not my daily life or daily thought process. This was something new that I have learned to cherish and I really have EVERYONE on this board to thank for it.

    3. I don't really know how to say what I am about to without offending some people and I am also not really sure if I care because I don't believe the same regard would be held for me (seeing that in the past it has not) if the situation was reversed. I have learned on this forum what I believe to be the absolute spiritual, emotional, and intellectual bankruptcy of the stereotypical fundamentalist position. Bankruptcy may even be too lenient a word. At the worst I can only call it unadulterated intellectual depravity. I have seen what I feel is raw hate, racism, and other types of discrimination. I have seen levels of incredulity that I did not know a human being could even attain without the assistance of some kind of disorder. I am sort of typing stream of consciousness right now and I feel like some of that might be harsh but I cannot really describe how I feel about it accurately any other way.

    {ABE: really wanted to emphasize stereotypical. There are many on this board who might be considered fundamentalist who do not elicit such a response in my mind although they may have a tendency to lean in that direction.}

    I have seen the position force people to completely disregard fact in favor of fantasy; even fantasy that has no basis in their religion. I have seen tactics evolve that can be called nothing less than dishonest. There has been ZERO regard for even UNDERSTANDING what the other side of the argument is saying. I have even been attacked for agreeing with my opponent as if my mere existence as one of the others presented the necessity to disagree with anything I said. It is almost like it is a knee jerk reaction to need to disagree regardless of what I said.

    Some may say that similar things could be said about the other side but all I see whenever someone tries to justify that is pointing at disagreement and argumentation trying to label it as ignorance. It is though a person daring to disagree is automatically relegated to the status of a malcontent regardless of what the content of the disagreement actually is.

    Some other specific things I have learned are:

    Liberals can be just as scary as neo-conservatives. I have discovered the Authoritarian to Libertarian continuum and have found myself to be an advocate on the Libertarian side without even knowing it. Authoritarian conservatives or liberals have the most potential to be the demise of many of the ideals Americans (or any freedom loving people) hold dear. IMO of course.

    There ARE two Genesis stories. I never even thought about it that way. It is also funny to see literalists build non-literal interpretations to try to rectify the contradictions.

    There are about as many ways to melt the earth as there were animals on the ark if you try to squish 4.5 GA worth of earth processes into 6000 years.

    It is hard to describe sedimentary geology on an internet forum. It is much easier to do on a blackboard.

    People WILL LIE in an attempt to preserve and propagate their dogma. (ie. Kent Hovind, Dover school administrators)

    A not insignificant number of Americans really DONT believe in the principles of the Constitution. And that is scary.

    Dinosaurs are much more exciting now than when I was in elementary school.

    Some republicans can be really awesome. (ie. John McCain, Judge Jones)

    Most are not. (ie. Everyone who voted for the Anti-Gay Marriage ammendment and the fing retarded Flag ammendment)

    It is too bad that Democrats are such wussies.

    I am so glad that I had a well rounded science education. Even though my science (computer science) isnt really, it is nice really to have the capacity to understand someone like Bill.

    We know more about the universe then I ever though we did.

    We know so little about the universe.

    Omnis nerd-fu is currently greater than my nerd-fu.

    Much more that I probably cant list.

    Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.


    Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
    Replies to this message:
     Message 62 by Omnivorous, posted 06-28-2006 7:35 PM Jazzns has not yet responded
     Message 67 by Larni, posted 06-29-2006 4:46 AM Jazzns has not yet responded
     Message 75 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 06-30-2006 1:36 PM Jazzns has responded
     Message 99 by Jazzns, posted 07-01-2006 11:26 AM Jazzns has not yet responded

      
    iano
    Member (Idle past 46 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 52 of 223 (327285)
    06-28-2006 6:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 46 by Mespo
    06-28-2006 3:43 PM


    Re: Not Worried - Just Amused
    Can you walk off the playing field and still share a brew in the same pub?

    If there was a genuine EvC get together and it wasn't a zillion miles away from an international airport, then I would fly to the States to make it there.

    One of these days one of the organising types here might actually make it become a reality.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by Mespo, posted 06-28-2006 3:43 PM Mespo has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 53 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2006 6:28 PM iano has responded

      
    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 53 of 223 (327289)
    06-28-2006 6:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 52 by iano
    06-28-2006 6:15 PM


    Re: Not Worried - Just Amused
    If there was a genuine EvC get together and it wasn't a zillion miles away from an international airport, then I would fly to the States to make it there.

    I'm sure you can put away your share of pints, iano. Maybe a London pub would be better. You could ride your motorcycle over.


    "Your friends, if they can, may bury you with some distinction, and set up a monument, to let posterity see that your dust lies under such a stone; and when that is done, all is done. Your place is filled up by another, the world is just in the same state it was, you are blotted out of its sight, and as much forgotten by the world as if you had never belonged to it."--William Law
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 6:15 PM iano has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 54 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 6:41 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

      
    iano
    Member (Idle past 46 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 54 of 223 (327292)
    06-28-2006 6:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 53 by robinrohan
    06-28-2006 6:28 PM


    Re: Not Worried - Just Amused
    London sounds good (though the Guinness there is dire), but I think you are stretching the envelope of American Liberalism way beyond safe operating loads.

    Nah. Let us go Stateside. We will be able to see what is going to land on our shores 10 years from now

    Edited by iano, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 53 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2006 6:28 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

      
    riVeRraT
    Member (Idle past 25 days)
    Posts: 5746
    From: NY USA
    Joined: 05-09-2004


    Message 55 of 223 (327293)
    06-28-2006 6:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
    06-26-2006 8:28 PM


    Yes, it has altered my belief's. It has made my faith in God much stronger. It has helped me define my faith, and how I should talk to people about it. What I can claim is real, and what I can't. It helps me to love people (although you would guess that from reading here, but some may have seen a change).

    creavolutio writes:

    My opinion on the honesty and integrity of (the more traditional)believing Christians has been destroyed. The Attitudes I've seen on here have been very dissappointing to say the least. When challenged to any real degree the tone very quickly turns sour. The posts become personal, the comments become sniping and the responses become diversionary and dishonest IMHO.

    I agree with that, but also find the exact opposite of that, to be true. That is people who live by logic, become very illogical when challenged to any degree. Very few have held there "honor", and I respect that. What I find is that no matter who we are, we are just people. One belief may or may not be better than the next, but it is what you make of it personally.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Larni, posted 06-26-2006 8:28 PM Larni has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 106 by Larni, posted 07-01-2006 7:51 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

      
    riVeRraT
    Member (Idle past 25 days)
    Posts: 5746
    From: NY USA
    Joined: 05-09-2004


    Message 56 of 223 (327294)
    06-28-2006 6:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 28 by CK
    06-28-2006 9:06 AM


    I was skeptic of the christian god concept before I got here now I'm entirely incredulous. As for the other gods? who knows? I don't know what I don't know.

    I'm not sure there is not a god but I'm as certain as I can be he's not the one that most christians talk about.

    This is old news. You've said this so many times now, I am starting to not believe you. I think your an alter-boy and your not telling us.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by CK, posted 06-28-2006 9:06 AM CK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 57 by CK, posted 06-28-2006 6:51 PM riVeRraT has responded

      
    CK
    Member (Idle past 2233 days)
    Posts: 3221
    Joined: 07-04-2004


    Message 57 of 223 (327295)
    06-28-2006 6:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by riVeRraT
    06-28-2006 6:46 PM


    The only thing I know about Altarboys is a unrepeatable joke with the punchline "A kitkat".
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by riVeRraT, posted 06-28-2006 6:46 PM riVeRraT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 60 by MangyTiger, posted 06-28-2006 7:28 PM CK has responded
     Message 73 by riVeRraT, posted 06-29-2006 5:58 AM CK has not yet responded

      
    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3004 days)
    Posts: 6367
    Joined: 05-26-2005


    Message 58 of 223 (327301)
    06-28-2006 7:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
    06-26-2006 8:28 PM


    firmed up rejection of evo models
    My experience here at EvC has resulted in deepening suspicions I held about evo proponents and has broadened my understanding of the Theory of Evolution, exposing many more holes in it than I realized before.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Larni, posted 06-26-2006 8:28 PM Larni has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2006 7:23 PM randman has not yet responded
     Message 107 by Larni, posted 07-01-2006 7:54 PM randman has responded

      
    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 59 of 223 (327305)
    06-28-2006 7:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 58 by randman
    06-28-2006 7:06 PM


    Re: firmed up rejection of evo models
    My experience here at EvC has resulted in deepening suspicions I held about evo proponents and has broadened my understanding of the Theory of Evolution, exposing many more holes in it than I realized before.

    Well, that pretty well sums it up, doesn't it? Along with this view, speaking of the fundamentalists, by Jazzn:

    At the worst I can only call it unadulterated intellectual depravity

    One is reminded of that poem of Auden, speaking on the eve of war:

    And the living nations wait,
    Each sequestered in its hate . . .

    ABE: I like it.

    Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

    Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


    "Your friends, if they can, may bury you with some distinction, and set up a monument, to let posterity see that your dust lies under such a stone; and when that is done, all is done. Your place is filled up by another, the world is just in the same state it was, you are blotted out of its sight, and as much forgotten by the world as if you had never belonged to it."--William Law
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by randman, posted 06-28-2006 7:06 PM randman has not yet responded

      
    MangyTiger
    Member (Idle past 4459 days)
    Posts: 989
    From: Leicester, UK
    Joined: 07-30-2004


    Message 60 of 223 (327307)
    06-28-2006 7:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 57 by CK
    06-28-2006 6:51 PM


    Totally unfair!
    The only thing I know about Altarboys is a unrepeatable joke with the punchline "A kitkat".

    Saying you know a joke about something but it's unrepeatable is just teasing!

    I did a quick google and the most likely candidate I could find is the third one down. Is that along the right lines?


    Oops! Wrong Planet
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by CK, posted 06-28-2006 6:51 PM CK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 66 by CK, posted 06-29-2006 1:49 AM MangyTiger has not yet responded

        
    Prev123
    4
    56
    ...
    15NextFF
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019