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Author Topic:   The Ark - materials, construction and seaworthness
iano
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 46 of 231 (327291)
06-28-2006 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by nwr
06-28-2006 6:12 PM


It won't roll much (unless it rolls over and capsizes). If the width of the ark is greater than the wavelength of the waves, they won't have much of an effect on it.

Rolling of ships is significant factor in their design. The ark is as subject to those forces as any other. It wasn't that wide by the standards of today ( the widest ship today is 3 times wider that the ark - given the common estimates for the ark listed)

226 ft is the width of the Jarhe Viking - the biggest ship ever built. The wavelength of sea-going waves is, I suggest, far, far less


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 47 of 231 (327312)
06-28-2006 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
06-28-2006 1:18 PM


Re: Does it matter?
Defining a kind is easy. A kind is one of the original sets of creatures created by God as depicted in Genesis from a creationist perspective.

easy....no problem

In fact, it is the disingenuinity of evos to claim that the concept of kind is undefined that makes someone like me think very, very poorly of evos.

Now, if you are talking about defining in scientific terms, I'd say that sort of like asking an evo to define "random", the first organism, or "species."


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 48 of 231 (327314)
06-28-2006 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
06-28-2006 3:18 PM


hilarious
Not good enough. This is a science forum. We need a demonstration that the pump is workable, not just a speculation.

Unbeleivable. I don't suppose though that jar sees the irony of an evo requesting "a demonstration."


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 Message 33 by ringo, posted 06-28-2006 3:18 PM ringo has responded

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iano
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 49 of 231 (327317)
06-28-2006 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by randman
06-28-2006 7:40 PM


Re: hilarious
Which is more important: on-topic or a smile

I'd go for a smile anytime


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16621
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 50 of 231 (327321)
06-28-2006 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by randman
06-28-2006 7:40 PM


Re: hilarious
randman writes:

I don't suppose though that jar sees the irony of an evo requesting "a demonstration."

iano has proposed what he calls a "workable design" for a pump. What's unreasonable about asking to see it work?


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3227 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 51 of 231 (327322)
06-28-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by iano
06-28-2006 5:46 PM


I'm not going to ignore the rest of the post but we do need to work out something. (137.17 meters by 22.86 by 13.716 meters). You have mentioned using

quote:
Noah being the age he is has probably seen the destrutive forces of nature before. A good place to position the apparatus would not be 'outside' the ark where wind and wave load can load its elegant structure. I say 'outside': there is nothing to stop the side plain of the boat being somewhat castellated and then sheeting the castellations off in order to provide pockets behind the sheeting which are open to the ocean below - no wind, no waves, or currents just a still body of water that swells and decays according to the rolling of the ark or larger, slower swells in the main body of water

This avoids the need for heavily reinforced structures


So how much will this affect the integrity of your ship?

how much room will these open spaces occupy? will they be open to the complete top of the ship to prevent constrition of air flow in both up or down strokes? (constriction of air flow will create a great deal of resistence to the motion up or down). Remember the more of these that you put in the less room you have for your animals and assorted food stuffs as well since you a working with fixed dimensions.

And again i am still uncertain how your pump works could you provide me a refrence to the pump design yours is designed around?


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 Message 41 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 5:46 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 2840 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 52 of 231 (327326)
06-28-2006 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Discreet Label
06-28-2006 1:22 PM


Waving hand. I know the answer!call on me!!
So to calrify I am asking how do you convert a non-existing up and down motion of the ark relative to the ocean into energy?

I know! I know! You give a really fast spiel and come up with imaginative possibilities and Voila! you've solved the problem. For some of us it's really that easy:)


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Replies to this message:
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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3227 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 53 of 231 (327327)
06-28-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by lfen
06-28-2006 8:25 PM


Re: Waving hand. I know the answer!call on me!!
I would be inclined to agree with you, but there is some small validity to building pivots that are off set from the center of gravity of the boat. Whether or not the thought experiment we are building in this thread is valid is a different case.

But who knows at least this thread is having a reasonable amount and decent engagement with the creos, i'll be getting my first refrence as to how this particular style of pump works (since it is a variation of one thats probably already made)


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jar
Member
Posts: 30980
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 54 of 231 (327343)
06-28-2006 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
06-28-2006 2:58 PM


Re: an example to illustrate your point
several times.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member
Posts: 30980
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 55 of 231 (327344)
06-28-2006 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
06-28-2006 5:32 PM


There is a device similar to what iano describes, it is the sea anchor.

The problem is that if a boat is making leaway, things that are over the side are rapidly carried astern. The force on the material will be aft, directly towards the stern of the vessel and would likely sheer off any capstans and crew that happened to be in the way.

One other thing to remember is that a Barque, Brig or Brigantine which would be smaller than Noah's Ark, would have had a crew of 20-30 and NO masses of livestock to tend.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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iano
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 56 of 231 (327395)
06-29-2006 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Discreet Label
06-28-2006 8:05 PM


So how much will this affect the integrity of your ship?

No need to affect it at all (over an above the general seaworthiness issues) Consider the pockets to be an internal add-ons onto the existing plain box structure.

how much room will these open spaces occupy?

It depends on how much sludge we are required to pump. That is unknown. We might suppose that the overall ark dimension with all necessary systems is big enough for the task at hand.

Would they be open to the complete top of the ship to prevent constrition of air flow in both up or down strokes?

We have a number of options:

Vent out the top

Vent out the side above the waterline

Vent inside (this could - assuming other details take this into account) be used to vent the ark - it is likely to be quite smelly in there)

Remember the more of these that you put in the less room you have for your animals and assorted food stuffs as well since you a working with fixed dimensions.

I'll bear it in mind.

And again i am still uncertain how your pump works could you provide me a refrence to the pump design yours is designed around

This is a bespoke item and is not designed around pumps because there were no other pumps around to base the design on. There have been many, many copies of the principles used however. You know those oil well pumps you see out in Texas (at least I think it was there - I saw them on Dallas years ago). They are quite similar although power source rocking the beam is different.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3227 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 57 of 231 (327477)
06-29-2006 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by iano
06-29-2006 5:29 AM


So how much will this affect the integrity of your ship?

No need to affect it at all (over an above the general seaworthiness issues) Consider the pockets to be an internal add-ons onto the existing plain box structure.

It is a question that should be considered. I feel placing these pumps within the ship reduces the number of cross beams (port to starboard). Thus reducing the integrity of the ship toward port to starboard stresses. So unless you want a solitary wave 6 months into the voyage to break Noah's ark, it probably should be considered.

And again i am still uncertain how your pump works could you provide me a refrence to the pump design yours is designed around

This is a bespoke item and is not designed around pumps because there were no other pumps around to base the design on. There have been many, many copies of the principles used however. You know those oil well pumps you see out in Texas (at least I think it was there - I saw them on Dallas years ago). They are quite similar although power source rocking the beam is different.

Would you happen to be referring to this Pumpjack which in turn requires a Borehole which is required for Submersible Pump which in turn is how a pump jack operates?


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 Message 56 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 5:29 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 11:49 AM Discreet Label has responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 58 of 231 (327481)
06-29-2006 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Discreet Label
06-29-2006 11:29 AM


It is a question that should be considered. I feel placing these pumps within the ship reduces the number of cross beams (port to starboard). Thus reducing the integrity of the ship toward port to starboard stresses. So unless you want a solitary wave 6 months into the voyage to break Noah's ark, it probably should be considered.

The housing to contain the disc/float wouldn't be much wider than the float itself. If these were 2 metres in diameter then the housings would nestle nicely in between crossbeams. Besides, the crossbeams could mount against the housing itself and 'transmit' support to the hull via the housing.

Would you happen to be referring to this Pumpjack which in turn requires a Borehole which is required for Submersible Pump which in turn is how a pump jack operates?

Thats the chappie. We have our power source sorted (our pump will be sized to suit), connecting rod (via eyes) to the beam, the pivoting beam nodding like a donkey. All we need now it to connect the beam to our submersible pump. Unless there are other considerations (like adapting the housing to to provide ventilation for the arks interior as secondary function)

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Discreet Label, posted 06-29-2006 11:29 AM Discreet Label has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Discreet Label, posted 06-29-2006 11:53 AM iano has responded

  
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3227 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 59 of 231 (327482)
06-29-2006 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by iano
06-29-2006 11:49 AM


Several specific considerations you may want to look into, includes reading the borehole information as well as how a submersible pump operates.

Pay attention to how a borehole is created as well as what kind of environment it needs for it to be able to operate (pressurized unpressurized). After you have read the information could you post what you understood from the material?


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 Message 58 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 11:49 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 231 (327483)
06-29-2006 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Discreet Label
06-29-2006 11:53 AM


I was filling you in on what our contraption looked like in order for you to picture the principle involved in operating the pump. If you are happy with the power generation and transmission we can progress to the submersible pump side of things as required of this application.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Discreet Label, posted 06-29-2006 5:20 PM iano has responded
 Message 62 by ramoss, posted 06-29-2006 5:36 PM iano has responded

  
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