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Member (Idle past 5110 days) Posts: 651 From: Jareth's labyrinth Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Abortion questions...? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Hello, Ludo. Long time since we've chatted.
Good post. The questions may be irrelevant to some people, but they really get to the heart of what I consider to be the important issues.
quote: To me, what is important isn't whether an individual is born or not; it is whether it is a conscious, sentient being. I believe that it requires a few years of experience and interaction with the outside world to develop this consciousness; thus being "partway born" isn't sufficient to extend rights and protection to the individual. I do use birth as the cut-off, not because there is something magic about that moment, but because I don't know when after the birth the baby becomes a human being, and so I figure birth is a "safe" point. -
quote: That is an interesting question. What if it can be shown beyond reasonable doubt that a third trimester fetus really does have enough of what we call consciousness and so becomes more like what we would consider human? Arguments in law and ethics make extensive use of analogies, but I can't think of another actual situation in real life that is analogous to this; a human being is completely dependent on another for its very life; this dependence entails some health and social risks for the other person; this dependence is a temporary situation. Personally, I would probably lean toward protecting the unborn human being in this case. If it were decided through a democratic process (I'm living in a fantasy land here, I realize) that the personal autonomy of the pregnant women still over-rides that of the unborn person, then I would continue to make my own preferences known, although I wouldn't go around harassing pregnant women. -
quote: Not a good analogy. Not only are the health risks of pregnancy and birth less for a dog (the upright posture and big brains of humans are a source of many of the health risks of birth), but a dog does not suffer the social stigma of being pregnant or having given birth. Remember, it's not as if an unwed mother is rewarded for "choosing life". -
quote: I think that my reply to #1 and 2 answers this as well. However, let me add that this is the issue why I am a partial vegetarian. I have no moral qualms about eating fish because I believe that a fish's central nervous system is too "primitive' to support what we would consider a consciousness; if it could be proven to me otherwise, I would abstain from fish as well. On the other hand, I have little doubt that a chimpanzee has at least a rudimentary "human-ness", which is why I am against using chimpanzees in medical research, like I oppose the use of any involuntary human subject. -
quote: Hahahahaha. Well, as I have stated, the location in regards to the birth canal is irrelevant. However, maybe anyone caught in the grip of such a passionate moment becomes a little less than human. Heh. -
quote: As I said before, I don't know when a baby beomes human in the sense of acquiring human rights; I simply use birth as a cut-off because (a) I believe that before birth the infant definitely does not have a consciousness, and (b) after birth there is a period where the doubts increase, and so birth is the safest point at which to make this cut-off. I found Practical Ethics by Peter Singer to be very influential; he uses this type of argument to discuss a range of contemporary social issues -- in fact, it was this book that convinced me to become a vegetarian. He himself discusses this type of situation. He acknowledges that according to his development, if a one or two year old infant can be shown not to be a "person", that is, not possessing what we would consider to be consciousness or sentience, then infanticide would be an acceptable practice. This is the sort of interesting situation that shows how complicated real life can be. You can choose to base your sense of ethics and morality on your subjective feelings of right and wrong in each situation as it comes up. The problem with this is that not only will your moral code end up being inconsistent, but if we all did this, with our differing opinions and differing "feelings" of right and wrong, we have no way of deciding what stand we should take as a society on any issue. Or you can try to figure out what fundamental principle or principles form the basis of your ethical code, and then try to work out your stand on various issues and situations based on this -- not only will this lend consistency to your own ethics, but if other people share similar principles then it becomes possible to decide how to we as a society should act in certain circumstances. However, as this example shows, when you take that route you will come to a point where it is not easy to take a definite stand that is consistent with what you believe to be your fundamental principle. "These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not." -- Ernie Cline
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Well, often it is in the second or third trimester when the symptoms of problems begin to appear, or when it becomes clear that the fetus has some severe developmental abnormalities. But a large number of third trimester abortions (I don't know how many) occur because a first trimester abortion is unavailable. Many clinics, hospitals, and doctors do not provide abortions, so many women have to travel large distances to obtain an abortion. This requires taking time off from work, and it requires finding transportation, in addition to finding the necessary funds to pay for the procedure. Many states now have mandatory waiting periods; even if the waiting period is "only" 24 hours, this woman now has to be able to take two days off, and either find transportation for two days, or find a way to stay the night in the big city. And there is the stigma that gets attached to being an unwed mother, or even for a married woman having a pregnancy that she just does not want -- many women, then, go through a period of denial where they don't take the necessary actions. This really is a problem for poor rural women, and by the time many of them can arrange things, they are now in the third trimester. "These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not." -- Ernie Cline
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: What is the difference between birth and the day after? I suspect none. And the day after that? Very little. However, as time goes on, the doubts begin to grow. By one year, I suspect that the infant may not have a human-like consciousness, but I begin to be very uncertain. So I advocate putting the cut-off sometime during the period in which it is "safe". Birth is in that period. Of course, you express qualms about this, even when you agree with the criteria that I am using. What we need is more information. It would be nice to know what consciousness really is, and what can be considered diagnostic of sentience. I don't know whether the cognitive sciences have anything to say on this as yet. But whether we have the information or not, the only thing we can do, assuming we live in a democratic society (ha ha, well, I can dream, can't I?), is to have a reasoned discussion and debate on this issue and then use the democratic process to reach and implement a consensus on this issue. Of course, that would not mean that the issue is closed. If you disagree with the consensus, hopefully you will have enough confidence in the process to continue to work to move the consensus closer to your values and opinions. "These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not." -- Ernie Cline
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
A Google search on "third trimester abortion reasons" turned up a page from Planned Parenthood. Besides the geographic and social barriers that prevent a timely first trimester abortion, they list:
Medical indications may lead to abortion after 12 weeks. Discovery of serious fetal anomalies, such as severe genetic disorders, or conditions in which the woman's health is threatened or aggravated by continuing her pregnancy include * certain types of infections * heart failure * malignant hypertension, including preeclampsia * out-of-control diabetes * serious renal disease * severe depression * suicidal tendencies Is this what you were asking for? "These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not." -- Ernie Cline
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Doubtful. Edited by Chiroptera, : Changed subtitle. "These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not." -- Ernie Cline
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Jesus Christ! What is it with this topic, that people have to make comments like this? If you don't understand someone's point, just state that you don't understand their point! If you don't think the other person understood your point, then just say so and try to clarify it! -
quote: That is true. In your posts you simply say, "very late term abortions", which includes anything that occurs during the third trimester (and maybe the second as well). In this post, you finally make it clear that you are referring to just a few days before term. Honestly, it really makes you look bad to be unclear and then accuse the other person of avoiding the question! -
quote: I don't know. Do abortions actually happen just before the due date without a medical reason? I can't find an instance of this, but I'm not very good at using Google. By this time the fetus is considered viable, and the practice can be regulated or even outlawed except when the mother's health is at risk. I suspect, although I don't know for sure, that any abortion that is being performed at this time is being done because of serious medical problems. Added by edit: In my personal opinion, it doesn't matter what the medical issues are in a situation like this, anyway. A woman is pregnant, and she doesn't want to be pregnant -- that is all the reason she needs. However, a physician has the right to refuse the service if performing the abortion (by this time it has become a more complicated medical operation) poses more risks to the woman's health than allowing the pregnancy to proceed to term. Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given. "These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not." -- Ernie Cline
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Am I? Sorry, I didn't mean to. I meant to just answer the questions, and to make sure that there were no doubts about where I stand on the issue. For example:
quote: I tried to answer your question about the medical reasons for a very, very, very late term abortion, but admitted that I couldn't. But I wanted to clarify that my stance on abortion does not depend anyway on medical issues, so I was pointing out to anyone reading our exchange that it is largely irrelevant to me whether or not there are medical reasons for terminating a pregnancy, and killing the fetus in the process, just a few weeks before completion of term. -
quote: You see? You may be pro-choice, but clearly at the very least you are conflicted about the issue in certain situations. And I can understand that. I will agree that after the first trimester the moral issues change, and that during the third we really have to be careful as to what we are proposing. I am just emphasizing that after considering the issue my personal opinion is that the fetus before birth is still not a human being in the sense of having commonly accepted human rights. "These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not." -- Ernie Cline
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: I was going to reply, but I would have just reiterated what I've already said, and I think you are saying that I am too repetive. *sniff* At any rate, I have already expressed myself (and quite well, if I may read that into your comments), and I will just repeat that it seems that I view the fetus very differently than you do. "These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not." -- Ernie Cline
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