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Author Topic:   The Flood - Animals and their minimum food requirement
RickJB
Member (Idle past 3154 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 106 of 239 (327448)
06-29-2006 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by iano
06-29-2006 10:03 AM


Re: Like a fish out of water
iano writes:

But why is there a need to take fish into the ark.

Not all fish can live in seawater (assuming God didn't "magic" away the salt)!

Also, most species are very sensitive to habitat/temperature and a supposed global flood would disrupt or destroy the balance.

Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5389
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 107 of 239 (327449)
06-29-2006 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by iano
06-29-2006 10:03 AM


Re: Like a fish out of water
No wonder: how do you kill all aquatic life using water as a medium of destruction?

By changing salinity or filling the water up with silt. Or changing its temperature. At least one of those three will kill most of the critters that live in water. And remember: if you kill the copepods and other such plankton, everything else starves.


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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1131 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 108 of 239 (327457)
06-29-2006 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by iano
06-29-2006 10:03 AM


Re: Like a fish out of water
iano writes:

how do you kill all aquatic life using water as a medium of destruction?

Bury it under continents' worth of silt and debris?

Crush it with depth so great (enough to cover mountains, after all) that no fishies can survive in their usual habitat?

Suffocate it by washing so much organic material into the oceans that aerobic decay eats up all the dissolved oxygen?

AbE: Beat me to it, Coragyps!

Edited by Omnivorous, : Nod to Coragyps.


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 Message 103 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 10:03 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 2291 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 109 of 239 (327462)
06-29-2006 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Omnivorous
06-29-2006 10:27 AM


Re: Like a fish out of water
We already know that Noah and his chums would be killed from trying to breath steam - how would this affect the fishies? wouldn't they more than likely boil to death before anything killed them?
This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 110 of 239 (327464)
06-29-2006 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Omnivorous
06-29-2006 10:27 AM


Re: Like a fish out of water
You may destroy a lot that way. But all? I do scuba diving and you'd want to see the speed at which a purposely sunk wreck-dive boat can accumulate new vegetation. All you need are pockets which do not get destroyed in order to start afresh. Water being an ideal medium for such propagation.
This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5389
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 111 of 239 (327470)
06-29-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by iano
06-29-2006 10:57 AM


Re: Like a fish out of water
All you need are pockets which do not get destroyed...

Sure. And those pockets are full of cleanish sea water, not anoxic, silty, fresh-to-brackish water. A Floode that deposits the whole geologic column in under a year, like the one Faith wants, is not quite a newly-sunken boat.


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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1131 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 112 of 239 (327478)
06-29-2006 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by CK
06-29-2006 10:53 AM


Re: Like a fish out of water
Yup.

Yum.

:)


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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1131 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 113 of 239 (327479)
06-29-2006 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by iano
06-29-2006 10:57 AM


Re: Like a fish out of water
All you need are pockets which do not get destroyed in order to start afresh.

What pockets? Once you cover the existing oceans with another 5 miles or so of water, there are no pockets--just fish paste.

Edited by Omnivorous, : typo


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jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 114 of 239 (327480)
06-29-2006 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Coragyps
06-29-2006 11:13 AM


Re: Like a fish out of water
There is also the issue of depth. A flood that covers the earth will have a major effect and one that will also leave very easily recognized evidence.

For example, even if what some YECs and others who believe in the Biblical Flood are right and there were no high mountain ranges at the time, there would still be hills of some hundreds of feet in height. There was still land, and water did run off so there was some variation in land topography.

If you add a water column even just a few hundred feet high you totally change the ecology of the sea floor. What was once at a depth of 60 feet will now be at a depth of several hundred feet, and as anyone who dives knows, the ecology at 60 feet is entirely different than that at 260 feet.

But we stray from the topic.

To return towards that, I have a question.

Folk have said that the main water supply was rain water.

IIRC the order of the Biblical event was lots of rain at the beginning, along with one bodacious storm. That was followed by a much longer period where they floated around while the water supposedly ran off.

So here are the questions.

  • how much water must be stored to last 8 humans and an unknown number of critters for the long post rain period?
  • where did the water run off to?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1131 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 115 of 239 (327484)
06-29-2006 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
06-29-2006 11:41 AM


Re: Like a fish out of water
jar writes:

For example, even if what some YECs and others who believe in the Biblical Flood are right and there were no high mountain ranges at the time

Ah. No mountains. Right. I missed that part.

But I thought Noah was supposed to have landed on a mountain? Was it just a very tiny mountain?


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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2075 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 116 of 239 (327486)
06-29-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Omnivorous
06-29-2006 12:04 PM


Re: Like a fish out of water
That was after, you know, 4.5 GA worth of geological process happening in 1 year. If Pangea can split and the contenents be realitivly in their current position within 1 year then building a mountain is child's play. But that really is OT.

What people are forgetting regarding some of this whole, "species X couldn't survive" is that YECs can just ad hoc anything around their primary "everything was different concept". Think about it. If we are already talking about taking on a canine kind, cat kind, all with some kind of super abilities that they all lost due to subsequent devolution due to the fall then we can make up all kinds of crap.

Maybe there was only 1 fish kind that was durable enough to survive the flood that subsequently lost that durability due to the fall. Same thing for other marine creatures.

You can play the ad-hoc game with anything to make it work. Maybe the kinds were smaller then. Maybe the representative proto-cat kind was more like a house cat that after the flood super-awesome-hyper-fast-micro-in-kind-evolved into the bigger cats.

Better yet, even more on topic, plants were more nutritious back then before they micro-devolved into the crappy kind we have today. See! Now you can stuff 1.8 million cubic feet of hay into just a few thousand cubic feet of super-awesome-pre-flood-plant-food-stuff.

Horray! Self-delusional need to make the flood myth seem plausable is preserved!


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
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Faith
Member
Posts: 31624
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 117 of 239 (327513)
06-29-2006 2:30 PM


Just a little question
This attempt by Bible believers to explain the flood scientifically, to undo the claims by science that it didn't happen, and the answers by Bible debunkers to discredit our explanations, finally gets tedious. Predictable.

Let me just ask: If you were as absolutely convinced of the truth of the Bible account of the flood as a fundamentalist is, absolutely without a doubt knowing that it happened as described, knowing that God is the inspirer of the whole thing, how would you go about answering science's contention that it didn't happen?

It's too easy to deny the premise so don't go there. Don't answer unless you can really put yourself in this position.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1807 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 118 of 239 (327514)
06-29-2006 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
06-29-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Just a little question
Let me just ask: If you were as absolutely convinced of the truth of the Bible account of the flood as a fundamentalist is, absolutely without a doubt knowing that it happened as described, knowing that God is the inspirer of the whole thing, how would you go about answering science's contention that it didn't happen?

Great question Faith. You've restored my, err, faith in you ;) Simple, it was a miraculous event. The world was changed beyond recognition. Admittedly, you still run up against the old "surely it's deception for the earth to look old..." but that's run-of-the-mill. Perhaps included in God's promise to Noah was a physical wiping out of the memory of the event from the universe? With a Goddidit-with-a-miracle answer, you can't go wrong ;) And it prevents the "become a Christian because just look at the physical evidence" bullshit I so detest...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 06-29-2006 2:30 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 119 of 239 (327516)
06-29-2006 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
06-29-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Just a little question
Let me just ask: If you were as absolutely convinced of the truth of the Bible account of the flood as a fundamentalist is, absolutely without a doubt knowing that it happened as described, knowing that God is the inspirer of the whole thing, how would you go about answering science's contention that it didn't happen?

Been there and eventually simply had to abandon the belief that the flood happened.

BUT...

if you want to prove that it did happen, you need to be able to show how every single piece of evidence that refutes the flood myth can be resolved. Some things that will have to be addressed are:

  • the fact that reef coral samples do not all show a period of die off that is uniform worldwide and at the same level.
  • why there is no signs of a flood that happened at one particular time all over the world.
  • how particular animals (for example the unique species found in australia and on certain islands) migrated there in the time frame allowed by the biblical flood.
  • why there is no genetic bottleneck common to all species and happening at the same time.
  • the specific flood model that would explain things like the Grand Canyon and other similar geological formations world wide.
  • why records like ice core samples that go back many, many tens of thousands of years do not show a flood.
  • a model for super-hyper-macroevolution that would explain how in only 4500 years a body of critters that could fit on one or a few football fields could expand into what is seen today.
  • a model that explains where all the water came from, and physical evidence that supports that.
  • an even tougher job would be to explain where all the water went, and the physical evidence that supports that.
  • a complete description and definition of kind that can be supported by some physical evidence.

Those would do as a start to simply get the theory on the table for discussion. Without them, there is little the flood supporters can do.

Edited by jar, : add "can be resolved"


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16621
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 120 of 239 (327518)
06-29-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
06-29-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Just a little question
Faith writes:

If you were as absolutely convinced of the truth of the Bible account of the flood as a fundamentalist is, absolutely without a doubt knowing that it happened as described, knowing that God is the inspirer of the whole thing, how would you go about answering science's contention that it didn't happen?

Ironically, that's exactly where I'm coming from.

As a teenager, I tried to do the calculations - how much flood water, how many animals, how much food, etc. (and this was before Henry Morris commercialized creationism). The problem I had was that every answer produced ten new questions - which you can see happening in this very thread.

I gave up on a literal interpretation of Genesis because it can't be done.


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