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Author Topic:   The Ark - materials, construction and seaworthness
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3228 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 61 of 231 (327547)
06-29-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by iano
06-29-2006 12:04 PM


Then what it looks like is seems perfectly fine, However what something looks like can and will tend to be completely different from how something is operated. Consider a toilet roll tube can look like, act like and seem like a toilet roll tube, but it can be a gun as well (spring gun). The horsehead in this case i picture how the thing moves and outside of that well we need to focus on the mechanism by which it operates. So again i would ask you to take a look at what borehole, and submersible pumps do.
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ramoss
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Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 62 of 231 (327553)
06-29-2006 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by iano
06-29-2006 12:04 PM


Fine.

When will teh scale model be made to see if it works?

Also, how are you dealing with the fact that with the stated materials and the stated dimentions, the ark would break into pieces due to the stress with any kind of waves what so ever?


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iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 63 of 231 (327570)
06-29-2006 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Discreet Label
06-29-2006 5:20 PM


I don't need to look at what boreholes and submersible pumps to to be honest. There are a number of pump types that could be considered. What occurs at the end of a nodding donkey may be suitable for our application or it may not. No matter. The pump I have in mind needs to be simple, made out of wood and other reasonably supposed materials and take account of the lay of the land in the application intended. It also needs to be able to pump poo. They are the general considerations that Noah faces. And so do we.

As to toilet roll guns. A decent scale model will easily tell whether any of the componants are unfit for use. Every compoonant can be pared down until it begins to struggle so as end up with a reliable, tough full sized version. All the materials necessary in order to determine sizing of the various componants are available: water/wood/poo.

People made things with enormous success long before the word engineer was ever thought of. The proofs in the pudding - we're all here aren't we :)


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3228 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 64 of 231 (327575)
06-29-2006 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by iano
06-29-2006 7:10 PM


To be truthful this is where it does matter, you have a distinct oppurtunity to support that there is a pump system that will fit the ark and that you know the proposed mechanism or you can find it. At this point you must demonstrate it. Because you now claim that there is a feasible pumping mechanism you must either demonstrate it or admit you are wrong, at this point you are at extreme risk of bearing false witness if you continue to contend that you have support.

To my understanding that is a very serious offense in your religion. Ethically its a very serious offense for me so i would not ask you to do something that I would not do, which is support your statements.

Also you contend that there is another pump type that will possibly work? could you please show it to me? Wikipedia is an excellet site and has a number of pages devoted to pump devices that are used or have been used throughout time?

Find me a pump design that works has been used, either that or document yourself working one (that will work on the boat like you describe) and write down how you built it as well as some footage of it pumping, and i'll be more than happy to build it to verify that it works.

People making things with enormous success long before engineers were ever thought of is not true especially if you talk about success in terms of how long a method was used and how long the structure stayed around as well as the kind of output that was put into it. I'm pretty damn sure American infrastructure will be around for a great deal longer time then any other ancient civilizations buildings.


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iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 65 of 231 (327582)
06-29-2006 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ramoss
06-29-2006 5:36 PM


Solid as a block
We're not talking ark design Ramoss we talking poo-removal. We must pre-suppose poo generation in order to suppose a poo-ump

Also, how are you dealing with the fact that with the stated materials and the stated dimentions, the ark would break into pieces due to the stress with any kind of waves what so ever?

I haven't thought the detail out much, but a concept might be sufficient to offset some of your doubt (a list of objections would mean you have considered it - which means your doubts have been offset - until such times as your objections are deemed valid)

A box the size of the ark is some structure alright. No doubt about it. Not at all an impossible structure by any stretch of this engineers imagination however. Approach it the way I would approach it. Work it backwards.

In your minds eye: begin with a solid lump of wood the size of the ark. The wood is half the density of water in this example (pretty average in fact). Place it on the water and it will float, half under water half over water. But there is no room for animals or anything else. So start hollowing it out. Begin in the very centre of the block. An amazing amount of material can be removed with affecting the strength of the block. Wood is immensely strong in bulk form.

As you hollow, buoyancy dictates that the block will float higher in the water - but to compensate you start adding that, which is approx. the same density as water to the void your creating - animals for instance, or a drink water containing storage vessel. Being twice the density they take up only half the volume you have excavated. Keep on hollowing out.

As you hollow out, the side walls get (relatively) thinner and the bulk strength of wood reduces in terms of advantage. A point will be reached where the sheer bulk is unable to withstand loads (mainly external pushing inwards) and they will start to bulge in. Start adding bracing at this point. Brace one bulging in wall against the opposite bulging in wall. The bulges cancel each other out. Thin out more and refine your bracing so that it itself doesn't buckle. One might take note from nature and see that triangulation is the best way to brace using relatively slender members

Perhaps add a second function to the cross bracing by adding flooring on top of it. The ark had a base floor, a deck top and 3 floors in between. Over a height of 45 ft it had 5 cross bracing layers. That is 9 ft high walls between layers . Your talking strong. (Of course you could leave out areas of decking for animals taller than 9 ft. A giraffe for instance)

Perhaps you observe your washing on the clothe line and decide that you don't want all that wind load and inherant instability which comes from floating half in/out of the water. Simple add more high density material such as more animals

Look at a high tension electricity pylon next time you pass one. All space and little material. See the triangulation. Next time you come across a dead bird take a longtitudinal section of its wing - see the structure Noah saw - little by way of material but lots of triangulation.

Noah has wood and glue and any number of joint designs at his disposal. That and his own multi-century smarts.(we are not in a position to comment on that advantage) Add a bit of lamination to the proceedings and you begin to enter the realm of immensely strong structures - the same as if you excavated from a solid block (stronger in fact - a solid block of wood has a grain along which you can get splits and cracks propagating. Not so with laminates)

An ark of size stated is not an engineering impossiblity by any means. It is in fact relatively simple. It just requires a lot of what is simple: time (or labour), materials and some basic, commoner garden engineering application

Chocks away!


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iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 66 of 231 (327586)
06-29-2006 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Discreet Label
06-29-2006 7:25 PM


Ahh. Sorry. Was under the impression I was talking to an engineering mind in this case, not a debater. I withdraw all design outlines presented

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3228 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 67 of 231 (327596)
06-29-2006 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by iano
06-29-2006 8:13 PM


*laughter* even an engineer must discuss and determine which design works best. As well as even work out if an engineered design will work.

But if you want to approach the field of engineering you still need to demonstrate how your engineering marvel will work.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 68 of 231 (327597)
06-29-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by iano
06-28-2006 10:17 AM


iano writes:

Message 4
The skill and intelligence it would take to build such a thing renders such sub-technology childs play.

And engineers that can land robots on mars, which then drill samples and evaluate the contents ...

... are currently unable to design a wave pump\energy system that does significant work, most rely on some kind of tether to provide restraint to {work} against. Free floating is another matter altogether.

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=7&t=112&m=41#41
whatever ...

and
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=7&t=138&m=65#65
whatever ...

follow this last one for some discusson on this pump concept
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=7&t=138&m=201#263
whatever ...

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : added second reference

Edited by RAZD, : added another link


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iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 69 of 231 (327604)
06-29-2006 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by RAZD
06-29-2006 8:37 PM


Its not at all complex razd.

Ships roll from side to side.

They roll around a longtitudanal axis. Because they do, any point on its hulls side will move closer to/further away from the surface of the water as it rolls from side to side

Lower a liftboat, detach from the ship and observe. The ship rolls over. And the lifeboat rises relative to an observer standing on the deck of the ship.

Attach a rigid arm between the ship and lifeboat. Roll the ship and watch the lifeboat go under the water - its buoyancy cannot 'resist' the roll of the ship

Join the lifeboat via a non-rigid arm (ie: a crank) and watch the shit hit the (ventilation) fan

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1866
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 70 of 231 (327607)
06-29-2006 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by iano
06-29-2006 8:02 PM


Re: Solid as a block
Add a bit of lamination to the proceedings and you begin to enter the realm of immensely strong structures - the same as if you excavated from a solid block (stronger in fact - a solid block of wood has a grain along which you can get splits and cracks propagating. Not so with laminates)

Care to show your calculations that would support this assertion?

also:
What is "gopher" wood?
What is its Ultimate Strength in Tension, Compression and Shear?
What is its Yield Strenght in Tension and Shear?
What is its Modulus of Elasticity?
What is its Modulus of Rigidity?
What is its Coefficient of Thermal Expansion?

Edited by DrJones*, : added some questions


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 71 of 231 (327613)
06-29-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Discreet Label
06-28-2006 1:26 PM


Re: Does it matter?
... is as stated as in the bible 450' X 75' X 45'

That's just the box it fits into, and gives no reference to the shape of the ship

see Marine Technologies, definitions page (click) for some idea of what is still missing.

Most pictures show it as boxy as possible in recognition of the finite size problem.

This does not address hogging and sagging problems as the boat rides through the waves - a cyclic stress that "works" the seams to open them and cause leaks - or dynamic stability.

Enjoy.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 72 of 231 (327627)
06-29-2006 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by iano
06-28-2006 1:43 PM


Consider a tube connected to a hole in the hull and running up to the deck, it will act like a sight tube on a tank (what you could put on your motorcycle tank to gage the gas inside) and allow you to see the depth of the water outside the hull ... it will rise and fall with the waves, right?

Now pur a flapper valve at the bottom so water can only enter the tube from the bottom ... how high will the water get inside the tube? As high as the highest wave, as anything less will not be able to overcome the column of water already in the tube that wants to be at equilibrium with the outside level.

And what you are trying to pump out is denser than water, so if I fill the tube with that it will not reach the tops of the waves.

Your best bet is either windmill (not mentioned) or draft animal power (abundantly plentiful I believe) and the way water has historically been pumped in the middle east (where I understand there is sometimes a shortage).

Why go hi-tech when you can go 'K.I.S.S.' and an easily repairable\replacable system, especially if it was "known" technology:

In 1750 BC, in Babylon, Hammurabi promoted the extensive use of water-lifting devices such as counterweights
and animal powered wheels.

for pictures of them see
http://www.ummah.net/history/scholars/water/

Enjoy.


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iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 73 of 231 (327683)
06-30-2006 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by RAZD
06-29-2006 10:17 PM


Whatever floats your boat
See message 69 for visualisation of a way of harnessing the energy of the sea acting on the ark. You are correct in what you say but that is not what is being proposed.

Consider: if a 'lifeboat' float had sufficient buoyancy to carry 40 people without being submerged and that resistance to submersion was instead directed into a pump by the rolling action of the ark then poo you would most certainly pump. Neglecting losses for a moment (the see-saw and connecting arms to float and pump can be neutrally balanced. Well designed and lubricated plain bearings absorb little power) then a column of poo the equivilent weight of 40 people can be supported by the float. All one has to do then is size the waste pipe from pump to above waterline so as to ensure the column of poo in the pipe weighs less than 40 people. Visualise a column of 40 people standing on each others head: say 220 feet. The poo column only has to reach the deck at most: 45 feet from the bottom of the ark.

Thereafter, the mechanism is relatively simple - no less complex that an animal driven device. The advantage of this pump over one involving animals is that the energy is 'free' - you don't have to stock food to drive it nor do you have the labour involved in changing the animal teams.

The pump system can also have the secondary function of venting the ark. I'm sure I cold think of something else too :)


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ikabod
Member (Idle past 2657 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 74 of 231 (327685)
06-30-2006 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by iano
06-30-2006 5:21 AM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
just a "thinks" struck me , would you not want to keep the poo , as post flood most good soil will have been washed away and so large amounts to soil inriching fertilizer ( poo) would be valuable to restart farming once the land is dry .

i mean the plants did not go in two by two . so the seeds will need a good start to grow in time to feed the ark's zoo once the waters are gone and the zoo is free to roam .


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 75 of 231 (327692)
06-30-2006 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by iano
06-30-2006 5:21 AM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
You are adding an unneccessary level of complication to a simple system and in the process introducing elements that are hard to maintain -- do you want to fix a leak in the float? If the float fails what is your backup? What are the loads on the float suspension arms fore and aft as well as athwartship? If the arm fails laterally there will be no pumping action. And how do you prevent water from coming in all those 'ventilation' byproducts?

Wooden sailing ships leaked constantly, and if this kind of thing would have had benefit over the pump system they used (manpower - cheap and readily available as well as inspired by self preservation to keep working) they would have tried it.

It also exercises the animals eh?

Enjoy.


Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
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... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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