Abortion questions...?

Extremely likely, not proven ROFLMAO!Seriously, I have heared stories of cows being butchered while still alive and standing and there is a fellow autistic and animal lover who has designed a far better and more humane way for cattle to be slaughtered (I cant remember her name. I'll find it later)Were getting a wittle off topic, but when it comes to how these companies kill their cattle, I think that ignorance is bliss when eating it, but they should be investigated and forced to end the life of their cows and other animals far, far, FAR more humanely.I also heared that Tyson food does some real mideval stuff to chickens, but other than Michael Moore's "Dude, where's my Country" i've never seen a source to confirm it.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Thank you for the websource Chirp I breifly looked at it, but excatcly what kind of site is it? I'll look later, but I see no reason to not trust it so far. I didn't know that that idea has been around for such a long time.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

You dont like Vanilla Ice Cream Ringo? I find it tasty, especially if it is Blue Bell (Texan Ice Cream)and smooth and melted.But My favorite is Strawberry. Tastes dah best Are you comparing fetuses with...vanilla ice cream?

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

I'm just saying it isn't my first choice - just like it isn't your first choice.Neither is abortion my first choice. But I don't tell other people what ice cream to choose and I don't tell other people what other options to choose.

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oh, okeedokee. Neither is mine, even if some mad scientist somehow made me pregnant. My first choice would either be Guiness world records or 6:00 news.Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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...or you are avoiding the question.

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Jesus Christ! What is it with this topic, that people have to make comments like this? If you don't understand someone's point, just state that you don't understand their point! If you don't think the other person understood your point, then just say so and try to clarify it!-

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either you don't understand what I'm asking for...

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That is true. In your posts you simply say, "very late term abortions", which includes anything that occurs during the third trimester (and maybe the second as well). In this post, you finally make it clear that you are referring to just a few days before term. Honestly, it really makes you look bad to be unclear and then accuse the other person of avoiding the question!-

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What are some medical reasons why the brain has to be sucked out rather than just letting the fetus come out all the way and then be taken from the mother right away (assuming she doesn't want it) for some serious medical attention?

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I don't know. Do abortions actually happen just before the due date without a medical reason? I can't find an instance of this, but I'm not very good at using Google. By this time the fetus is considered viable, and the practice can be regulated or even outlawed except when the mother's health is at risk. I suspect, although I don't know for sure, that any abortion that is being performed at this time is being done because of serious medical problems.Added by edit:In my personal opinion, it doesn't matter what the medical issues are in a situation like this, anyway. A woman is pregnant, and she doesn't want to be pregnant -- that is all the reason she needs. However, a physician has the right to refuse the service if performing the abortion (by this time it has become a more complicated medical operation) poses more risks to the woman's health than allowing the pregnancy to proceed to term.Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

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"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

FYI: Dr Temple Grandin.She has a website, if you're interested.No need to reply, since it is off topic, but I thought I'd chime in with that for you.

Thanks dude

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

I can't vouch for the accuracy of this report (someone with more medical knowledge than I will have to address that) but I found this at D&X procedure (a.k.a.Partial Birth Abortion) - All sides

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A midwifery web site quotes Dr. William F. Harrison, a diplomate of the American Board of Obstetrics and Gynecology. He wrote that "approximately 1 in 2000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus while in the womb." About 5000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus each year in the U.S. This is not usually discovered until late in the second trimester. Some cases are not severe. After birth, shunts can be installed to relieve the excess fluid on the newborn's brain. A pre-natal method of removing the excess fluid is being experimentally evaluated. However, some cases are much more serious. "It is not unusual for the fetal head to be as large as 50 centimeters (nearly 20 inches) in diameter and may contain...close to two gallons of cerebrospinal fluid." In comparison, the average adult skull is about 7 to 8 inches in diameter. A fetus with severe hydrocephalus is alive, but as a newborn cannot live for long; it cannot achieve consciousness. The physician may elect to perform a D&X by draining off the fluid from the brain area, collapsing the fetal skull and withdrawing the dead fetus. Or, he might elect to perform a type of caesarian section. The former kills a fetus before birth; the latter allows the newborn to die after birth, on its own. A caesarian section is a major operation. It does expose the woman to a greatly increased chance of infection. It "poses its own dangers to a woman and any future pregnancies." Allowing a woman to continue in labor with a severely hydrocephalic fetus is not an option; an attempted vaginal delivery would kill her.

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Chiroptera writes

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That is true. In your posts you simply say, "very late term abortions", which includes anything that occurs during the third trimester

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I thought I made it clear that I was pro-life to the extend that I do not violate a woman's right to choose. Why would I be referring to the type of late term abortions that result in the aborted fetus not having any chance of survival in the outside world? I even said that I couldn't do anything about it.

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I can't find an instance of this, but I'm not very good at using Google.

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I once read an article several years back about a nurse testifying before congress some years back about these very rare types of very late term abortion (a few weeks to a few days before due date). I can't remember the article's name, so I suppose you don't have to take my word for it.

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I suspect, although I don't know for sure, that any abortion that is being performed at this time is being done because of serious medical problems.

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Which is the core of my question. I have never been able to get answer that is beyond "serious med problems".

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In my personal opinion, it doesn't matter what the medical issues are in a situation like this, anyway. A woman is pregnant, and she doesn't want to be pregnant -- that is all the reason she needs.

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Despite the several times I tried to make it clear that even though I'm a pro-lifer I also believe in a woman's right to choose, you still treat me like I'm anti-choice.Abortion simply means ejecting the parasite that is inhabiting the woman's body. It doesn't have to involve directly killing the unborn.What i'm trying to get at is when the fetus is a few seconds from becoming a baby, and if the woman doesn't want to keep the parasite, why not just let it out, take it away from the woman (she doesn't want it), and give it serious medical attention to give it at least a chance to survive? If it's only seconds away, why does it have to involve inserting a needle and extracting the brain?

Thank you, bob_gray. That's all I asked for.

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you still treat me like I'm anti-choice.

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Am I? Sorry, I didn't mean to. I meant to just answer the questions, and to make sure that there were no doubts about where I stand on the issue. For example:

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Which is the core of my question. I have never been able to get answer that is beyond "serious med problems".

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I tried to answer your question about the medical reasons for a very, very, very late term abortion, but admitted that I couldn't. But I wanted to clarify that my stance on abortion does not depend anyway on medical issues, so I was pointing out to anyone reading our exchange that it is largely irrelevant to me whether or not there are medical reasons for terminating a pregnancy, and killing the fetus in the process, just a few weeks before completion of term.-

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What i'm trying to get at is when the fetus is a few seconds from becoming a baby....

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You see? You may be pro-choice, but clearly at the very least you are conflicted about the issue in certain situations. And I can understand that. I will agree that after the first trimester the moral issues change, and that during the third we really have to be careful as to what we are proposing. I am just emphasizing that after considering the issue my personal opinion is that the fetus before birth is still not a human being in the sense of having commonly accepted human rights.

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"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

Chiroptera writes

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I am just emphasizing that after considering the issue my personal opinion is that the fetus before birth is still not a human being in the sense of having commonly accepted human rights.

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I see two fundamental differences in our views.The obvious one is that I personally want to extend the most basic of basic human rights to the blob of cells we call the human embryo and the fetus.The less obvious is our definition of what an abortion is. I have always under the impression that abortion is simply rejecting the parasitic being that inhabits the woman's body. In other words, it is there solely by her grace only. We can think of that parasitic being as a house guest or even someone that constantly receives a blood transfusion from you. At any moment during its leisure stay in your home, you can kick it out, and that is your right. Or if you want to think of this as a blood transfusion example, the person giving the blood at anytime he wishes to stop giving blood to the patient. The patient receives the blood solely on his grace.The problem that I have with the method of abortion we've been discussing is that why do you need to inflict a mortal wound on the house guest IFF all you have to do is have him evicted from your home? With the patient receiving your blood, why do you need to shoot him in the head or kick him in the crotch before you disconnect him from yourself? Why not just let him have a fighting chance? (This only applies to situations where it is possible to safely evict the house guest without significant loss to you.)

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Am I? Sorry, I didn't mean to. I meant to just answer the questions, and to make sure that there were no doubts about where I stand on the issue. For example:

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After the several dozen messages you posted on this matter recently, I think everyone has a pretty good idea where you stand. What I had a problem with was the "it's the woman's choice..." statement in the middle of a conversation that is about something entirely different. It really looked like you were implying that I was insisting that the woman should have no choice in the matter.But I'm glad we came to an understanding

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But I wanted to clarify that my stance on abortion does not depend anyway on medical issues, so I was pointing out to anyone reading our exchange that it is largely irrelevant to me whether or not there are medical reasons for terminating a pregnancy, and killing the fetus in the process, just a few weeks before completion of term.

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I think your stance should depend somewhat on medical issues, especially if the procedure in question involves directly killing a being that very closely resembles my niece when I was looking after her a few years back. Ejecting the fetus from the mother is one thing, but actively killing something that is so human-like is another.Edited by rgb, : Changed neice to niece - e after i unless preceded by a c

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After the several dozen messages you posted on this matter recently, I think everyone has a pretty good idea where you stand.

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I was going to reply, but I would have just reiterated what I've already said, and I think you are saying that I am too repetive. *sniff*At any rate, I have already expressed myself (and quite well, if I may read that into your comments), and I will just repeat that it seems that I view the fetus very differently than you do.

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"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

This has GOT to be a record for this forum. We have just traded in an abortion debate without biting each other's heads off!

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4