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Author | Topic: Induction and Science | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ramoss Member (Idle past 634 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
You are right on. Some theories become facts as and when evidence is provided.Other theories stay as theories because, there is no evidence.
You don't understand the relationship between 'theories' and 'facts'. Theories are models to explain the facts. For example, the THEORY of evolution is a model to explain how the FACT of evolution works. It isa FACT that species change. It is a fact that species go extinct, it is a fact that new species appear. The THEORY of evolution is a model to explain the mechanism of how this happens. Just like Gravity. The fact is that if you have a brick, and drop it, it falls to the earth as a certain rate of speed. The 'law' of gravitydescribes what exactly happens (32 ft per second per second). The THEORY of gravity is a model to try to explain why this happens.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Admittedly, crashfrog was mainly concerned with the comparisons required for measuring. But even then, you have to know what you are measuring in order to know what you are comparing. We find it easy, but if you try to automate general purpose measuring with a robotic system, you will discover that it isn't at all easy. How did we wind up arguing the exact opposite side of the argument we each started on? It seems to me that if you're arguing that measurement requires proceeding from things you already know, or assume, then you're arguing the same basic point I started out making, and you started out attacking - measurment is deductive.
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
If you thought I was arguing that measuring is deductive, you were mistaken.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
It is a FACT that species change. Yes, it is called natural selection, but limited within kind. Some people have blue eyes, and some have brown, but no one has compound eyes.
It is a fact that species go extinct Yes. Where are the new one's to replace them?
it is a fact that new species appear. Oh really?
The THEORY of evolution is a model to explain the mechanism of how this happens. It is a model of what really happens (natural selection) that then tries to extend that principal to what has never been observed (the arrival of a new species).
Just like Gravity. The fact is that if you have a brick, and drop it, it falls to the earth as a certain rate of speed. The 'law' of gravity describes what exactly happens (32 ft per second per second). The THEORY of gravity is a model to try to explain why this happens. With gravity, we can observe the fact and then theorize the mechanism. With natural selection we can observe the mechanism, and then theorize what it is doing. We cannot however, observe the fact of evolution. Change within species is not a new species, but only a variation within kind. Evolution presumes more order arising form less order... It appears to me that the order within the biosphere is degrading. There are less species than in the past and the enviroment is less hospitable to delicate species all the time. Whole ecosystems are in collapse. Systems are ordered... Within naturalism, there is no moral imperitive to make a claim that this is bad. It is only survival of the fittest. Some species are dying as a result of the actions of man. It seems to me that if evolution and naturalism are true, then this is only a random process that may very well lead to our own death. As such, some new form will take our place. We should not try to resist our nature. We must allow ourselves to destroy ourselves. According to naturalism, to do otherwise would be unatural. But then again, we must survive even at the expense of other life. But if order in increasing, then why is it decreasing? Is this confusion natural? Can you induce a response?
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
I realize that this is getting off-topic, but I thought the following warranted a reply:
quote: Actually, the theory of evolution presumes no such thing. I wrote a post some time ago listing all the presumptions of the theory of evolution; as you can see, there is nothing about "order" arising. If you accept that actual "presumptions", then "order arising out of disorder" may be a logical conclusion, but it is not a presumption. That is, if you can explain what you mean by "order"; but judging from the recent "morality" thread, I suspect that you might not have an idea of "order" that is precise enough to warrant making any definite statements about it. And since we see "order arising from less order" all the time, there doesn't seem to be anything amiss in presuming this anyway. "These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not." -- Ernie Cline
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ramoss Member (Idle past 634 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Yes, really, It hzs been observed that new species have arisen in the last 100 years. So, yes, really, new species have arisen.
I am sure you have been given plenty of examples. If not, I can give you those examples. Should I? Or would you reject it out of hand because it does not fit into your preconceptions?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
I am sure you have been given plenty of examples. If not, I can give you those examples. Should I? Or would you reject it out of hand because it does not fit into your preconceptions? Oh please do... but not in this thread. I have received very kind, yet personal e-mail warnings about taking these topics off point. I must change my ways... Perhaps you could shoot me an e-mail. This is nwr's topic, and we are not on it...
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ramoss Member (Idle past 634 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Define 'kind'. Give straight forward definition that can actually be used.
And you see, when it comes to changes in families.. you have two very closely related species. Each starts taking small steps of character traits away from the 'parent' species... but in opposite direction.As the tiny steps add up, each succeeding generation is the same 'kind' as the previous one, but they no longer are the same 'kind' as the parent species, no of it's 'cousin' species. It's all done with baby steps.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Define 'kind'. Give straight forward definition that can actually be used. -Humans- Perhpas you can tell me who is more evolved, an African human, or a caucasion?
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CK Member (Idle past 4150 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Neither - the question is incorrect phrased - evolution does not say anything about anything being "more evolved" (edit: In the linear sense of moving from "worse" to "better").
Edited by CK, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
evolution does not say anything about anything being "more evolved". So, an atom, is a rock, is an e-coli, is a bannana, is a human?
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CK Member (Idle past 4150 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
No - not at all.
I hope that answered your question for you. So
quote: What's your answer to that question? Please no fortune cookies. Edited by CK, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhpas you can tell me who is more evolved, an African human, or a caucasion? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What's your answer to that question? Neither! But not because the question is flawed... but because evolution is not true. All of the genetics we see in different races, used to be one. When we combine them we get some of the most beatiful people, both physically, culturally etc.. The problem is not that one is superior to the other, the problem is that all men are fallen in sin.
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CK Member (Idle past 4150 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: No Thanks I gave in the faith forums earlier. I'll leave the rest of you to it - I have no interest in this sort of conversation in the science forums.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
quote: Per the "kinds" discussion and everything else off-topic - Look around for a better place to discuss it. Maybe get to know how to use the forums search utility. AND IF YOU FEEL YOU MUST REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE (and I don't see why you would want to), do it at the "General..." topic, link below. The last person not to follow this suggestion got a suspension out of it (and for other things). Adminnemooseus ADDED BY EDIT: AFTER I POSTED THE ABOVE, I'VE LOOKED AT THE NEWEST MESSAGES. THINGS SEEM TO BE GETTING PRETTY STUPID. STOP IT! Added by edit #2 (many hours later): For the record (see here), Rob was suspended for 2 hours for posting the following off-topic message 151. There is now a new topic for some of that off-topic content. See message 152 for the link to there. Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above. Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Edit #2 as noted above. New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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