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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 169 of 300 (327093)
06-28-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Brian
06-28-2006 4:18 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
So, "to love God" is not a command?
What makes you think it is not a command?
Doesn't this contradict your earlier staements that we are to love God and others as we love ourselves?
No.
What you are saying is not a command, a command is something you are told to do, you are having us atheists passively love God, which doesn't fit your criteria.
In what way doesn't it fit? When you do what is right, and try not to do what is wrong, GOD is pleased. And far from being some passive act, it is a love totally built on doing. YOU Are told what to do, do right and try not to do wrong.
GOD doesn't care about singing or praising or folk shout Her name, Loving GOD is living.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 4:18 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 11:09 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 177 of 300 (327162)
06-28-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Brian
06-28-2006 11:09 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Because you say that the atheist is fulfilling this 'command' passively, the atheist is unaware of this command.
If I command you to do something that you don't know about, and you do it, how can I possibly claim that you followed my command?
Did you know that I commanded you to reply to this message before 02.00pm?
I believe that GOD reaches evry heart, even those who are unaware of Her. If I did respond in your time frame, even if unaware of it, I will have fulfilled your desires.
All that GOD wants is for folk to try to do what is right and to try not to do what is wrong.
The atheist doesn't know about the command to love God, but you are saying they fulfill it anyway, it doesn't make sense.
Perhaps not yet, but maybe one day you will understand.
How can it not be a passive participation if you don't know about the command to love God?
Because loving GOD is an action, not words or beliefs or acknowledgement. It is the results that count, what you do, not why you do it.
Yes, and according to you we are also charged to love God, I don;t believe in God, I am unaware of this command, yet I fulfill it?
Also, believing what is right or wrong can be very different depending on your faith.
If you try to do what is right, and try not to do what is wrong, then yes, you do fulfill the commandment. When you are judged (I know you don't believe you will be judged but I do believe you will be judged, it is a statement of belief you know), you will be judged based on your behavior. If during your life you really did try to do what is right, tried not to do what is wrong, were sorry when you failed and tried to do better in the future, then GOD will know it.
And yes, what is right may at times depend on ones Faith. But that is but one of the variables. Deciding what is right and wrong will always be a difficult decision make with insufficient information, without completely considering all the factors and within the limitations all humans face. GOD knows that. He does not expect perfection.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 11:09 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Brian, posted 06-30-2006 3:50 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 182 of 300 (327173)
06-28-2006 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by iano
06-28-2006 12:08 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I have wondered frequently about whether this passage describes good deeds as being the cause of the sheep being deemed sheep or whether the good works were a consequence of them being sheep. It is not clear which it is. If the latter then the good works follow as a result of sheephood. In which case 'important' is not the right term to apply to the deeds. What is important is can you say "Baaa..."
Actually I think that is pretty clear in the passge. The sheep are surprised to be selected. Would someone who is knowingly a follower of Christ be surprised to be selected?
On the otherhand, the goats are surprised they are not selected. They seem to be followers of Christ, ones who thought they were in.
Hell I imagine will be full of Christians while heaven I imagine will be full of atheists.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:08 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:55 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 192 of 300 (327222)
06-28-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by iano
06-28-2006 12:55 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It must be a real head-wrecker to go around doing the prescribed good things whilst all the while remaining unknowing that one is doing the prescribed good things in order that one can be surprised that one did the prescribed good things come the day of the sheep and goats.
If there is a thought in there I can't quite make it out.
I have no idea what a prescribed good thing might be so I doubt that anyone does such things.
I believe we all start off saved, no one has Damned stamped on their foreheads.
You do not earn salvation, that was given, freely given by GOD to all mankind. But there is more to the story. GOD also gave us the ability to know right from wrong, to make moral judgements. Like all the abilities given by GOD, She expects us to use them. We are charged to try to do right, and to try not to do wrong, not for salvation but because it is the right thing to do.
Salvation is not a realy big thing. For almost everybody, IMHO everything that ever lived, it is a done deal. The thing that will get one assigned to the Goat pen will be acts of wilfull wrong doing and wilfull ignorance. It will be the intentional and continued misuse of GODs gifts, of ignoring GOD's charge for us to try to do right and not do what is wrong that will be judged.
I believe that what will not be excused come judgment day is intentionally doing harm to others in GOD's name. Those Christians (and I specifically address this to Christians because they are the ones doing evil in GOD's name) that are exclusionary, that oppress homosexuals, that try to keep children in ignorance by preaching and teaching Biblical Creationism, those who condemn GOD's own children simply because they worship differently or call Her Allah, they will be judged as Goats.
Those who have tried to do what is right, and tried not to do what is wrong, who have repented for failures and tried to do better in the future just because that is the right thing to do, whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, Buddhist, Wiccan, Satanist, Atheist or Agnostic well be welcomed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:55 PM iano has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 196 of 300 (327234)
06-28-2006 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by nwr
06-28-2006 2:27 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
iano writes:
Neither is he doing anyone any favors by telling them his gospel
to which nwr replies:
quote:
I would suggest that you do something about the beam in your own eye, before you worry about the mote in jar's eye.
I wouldn't really say that.
This was a belief statement, nothing more. It was an attempt to put into words a very shortened, very abbreviated version of my religous journey.
All I can do is try to express what it is I believe, and where possible explain why I so believe. The case that I make for my beliefs will be the best I can. Some may find it convincing, others certainly will not. I try not to tell others what they should believe, that is up to them. I do though express what it is that I believe and I encourage others to do the same.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by nwr, posted 06-28-2006 2:27 PM nwr has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 197 of 300 (327235)
06-28-2006 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
06-28-2006 2:36 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It's like me caring if an ant believes in me
I do want to point out that I believe that the difference between GOD and man is many orders of magnitude greater than that between man and an ant, or even man and some single celled critter.
I very much believe in a GOD that is the creator of all that is, that was and that will be and that after I die I will be judged based on what I do during this short lifetime.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-28-2006 2:36 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 207 of 300 (327487)
06-29-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by lfen
06-29-2006 11:10 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I certainly cannot speak for Brian, nor would I try to but I can certainly tell you about my beliefs.
I fully accept the Nicene Creed and have often described myself as a Cradle Creedal Christian.
I also believe that the Bibly is a Holy Book, one filled with timeless truths about GOD, God's relationship with the Universe and all that is in it, Man's relationship with GOD and with all other living and non-living things.
I believe that the Great Sacrifice was not Jesus Death, Jesus was born as man and so would always have died, but rather that the Sacrifice is Jesus' life. For GOD to become man, frail, limited, born with the sure knowledge that He will die, even with the complete Faith of His resurrection, is an awsome thought.
I find the idea that Jesus crucifixion was some required payment for human sins just plain silly. Why would GOD become human just to get killed as some form of payment? It makes no sense. On the otherhand, the idea of GOD becoming human to teach us what His message really is, to show us by the most convincing possible demonstration that there is a life after death by dying and then coming back in person to talk and teach among his followers, that to me seems to make sense.
IMHO one depicts a somewhat insane Godlet, one that seems to think he has to pay himself for what he could freely do, while the other shows a GOD of great love and patience who is speaking to us in the form we can understand, by leading through example, teaching by example.
There are many here, across teh whole spectrum of belief or non-belief, that have said I am not a Christian. That's fine. Their judgement of that really is unimportant. There are others though who may hear what I say and for them, if what I say makes sense, then I have succeeded in explaining my beliefs.
And that is really all this thread is about. It is not a gospel, or sermon or exhortation. It is but an explanation of my beliefs.
Edited by jar, : add requisite spalling arrers

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by lfen, posted 06-29-2006 11:10 AM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by GDR, posted 06-29-2006 1:59 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 233 of 300 (327721)
06-30-2006 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Faith
06-30-2006 4:34 AM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
He could have TOLD us without dying. Silly idea. He could have spent a long fruitful life preaching the forgiveness of sins if he didn't have to die to pay for them.
He did tell us and He could have had a long and productive life teaching us, and He didn't have to die for our sins.
But once born He would have died, either from old age or illness or accident or as happened, the fear of His message.
The idea that GOD needs some kind of payment from us is IMHO ludicrous. What can we possibly give GOD beyond just trying to live a good life? Only GOD can forgive, and it's not some commercial transaction.
There is no price to be paid.
That does not mean there was no sacrifice. GOD becoming Man, frail, subject to illness, knowing sorrow and pain and doubt and temptation, knowing that there is death even if there is a belief in ressurection, not knowing if temptation can be resisted, being misunderstood, hated, feared, all of those things that define MAN, was a Great Sacrifice.
All of those things GOD did, to teach us, to show us, to help us.
Jesus died.
Jesus rose from the dead.
Jesus walked with His friends.
Jesus ascended into heaven.
What greater demonstration of the truth of GOD's message could be imagined?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 4:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 10:53 AM jar has not replied
 Message 237 by Phat, posted 06-30-2006 11:03 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 238 of 300 (327755)
06-30-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Phat
06-30-2006 11:03 AM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Do you honestly think that He expects us to be apt little pupils who listen atentively and then attempt to behave under the accordance of our own will?
Where have I said anything like that?
GOD gave us the gift of knowing right from wrong. GOD charged us to try to do right, to try not to do wrong, to be honest with ourselves and when we do screw up, acknowledge it and try to do better in the future.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Phat, posted 06-30-2006 11:03 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 252 of 300 (327847)
06-30-2006 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Brian
06-30-2006 3:50 PM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Brian, I am disappointed in you.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Brian, posted 06-30-2006 3:50 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 8:52 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 259 of 300 (327942)
07-01-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Brian
07-01-2006 8:52 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Well, most of them were sophomoric questions totally unrelated to anything I have said, so no, I will not bother with them.
But a few showed either that you are not reading what I write or that I am really failing to make myself understood.
You had mentioned in an earlier post that you commanded me to reply before some deadline.
I said that if I did reply within your timeframe that would fulfill your command even if I was unaware you had made such a command.
Then you replied:
Well actually it doesn’t. You see I created you with free will so that you would follow me by choice. I am not the type of God to resort to subterfuge to fulfil my desires.
I didn’t realise that you didn’t believe in free will.
Well, that response has absolutely nothing to do with anything either of us had said and seems to be just another attempt to misrepresent what I say. I expect that behavior from some, but did expect a higher level from you.
You went on to propose this.
But I do try to do this, I just don’t need the promise of a reward as an incentive.
Let me ask you this Jim. Would you still be a nice person if you were not a ”Christian’?
I would hope I would be a nice person regardless of my religious beliefs. My point throughout this thread and my time posting here at EvC is that the Knowledge of Right and Wrong was given to all, as was the charge to try to do right and not wrong.
Oh I see. So because I treat others as I would like to be treated that makes me a Christian?
Am I a Christian ?
No, nor have I said anywhere that how you treat people makes you a Christian. Christianity is a religion, a belief, and to be a Christian you really must first believe in GOD, believe in Jesus, that He lived, died, was resurected and accended into heaven where He sits on the right hand of the Father ...
I believe though that behavior is what will be judged after you die. If through your life you really do try to do what is right and try not to do what is wrong, if you help others, basically if you don't screw up TOO much, you will be saved.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 8:52 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 9:32 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 262 of 300 (327948)
07-01-2006 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Brian
07-01-2006 9:32 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Yes.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 9:32 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 10:01 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 264 of 300 (327954)
07-01-2006 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Brian
07-01-2006 10:01 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
No, I believe the second is a general instruction on how the first is done.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 10:01 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 10:35 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 267 of 300 (327964)
07-01-2006 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Brian
07-01-2006 10:35 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
I'm not sure what your point is. Jesus was talking to a religious folk, ones who believed in GOD, about what the religious commands were. He outlined those, that the First Command is to love GOD and the second is like unto it, love others as you love yourself. He went on to say that all the other commands and prophets hung on those two commands.
It is one continuing statement, a set of instructions.
The big command is to Love GOD. Everything else is simply the HOW of Loving GOD.
Are all the others redundant? Not in my opinion. They are explanatory, greater detail on how one should behave.
But someone who does love others as he loves himself, who does try to do right and not wrong, IS loving GOD even if that person is unaware that GOD exists or even is convinced GOD does not exist.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 10:35 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 07-01-2006 6:06 PM jar has not replied
 Message 271 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 6:24 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 274 of 300 (328080)
07-01-2006 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Brian
07-01-2006 6:24 PM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Well, since I disagree with your analysis, I don't really see any point to continuing. I see the Primary commandment as Love GOD. The others are explanations of how one does that.
It isn't hard to understand Brian, Love GOD, love others as you love yourself.
It really is as simple as that.
If you wish to believe that you are not saved, then that is fine. However, I believe that after you die you will be judged, not on some profession of belief, but rather on the life you lived.
This is a belief statement Brian, what I believe. It is not a sermon, not an Epistle, not a gospel, just a statement of what I believe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 6:24 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by AdminPhat, posted 07-02-2006 2:23 AM jar has not replied
 Message 286 by Brian, posted 07-02-2006 5:23 PM jar has not replied

  
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