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Author Topic:   The Flood - Animals and their minimum food requirement
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 121 of 239 (327525)
06-29-2006 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
06-29-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Just a little question
Let me just ask: If you were as absolutely convinced of the truth of the Bible account of the flood as a fundamentalist is, absolutely without a doubt knowing that it happened as described, knowing that God is the inspirer of the whole thing, how would you go about answering science's contention that it didn't happen?
This is difficult for me to answer as I've never had that sort of blind belief in anything, but I'll give it a try.
I think my approach would be to concede that in terms of the evidence that can be examined by science it appears there never was a flood.
This means there has to be a reason for this - God is fooling us for some reason or Satan planted the evidence[1] or something else entirely that just hasn't been revealed to us yet.
To those who argue that the first option turns the Christian God into Loki The Deceiver I would say it is arrogant of us to presume to know or judge God's motives or methods.
I know this donesn't apply to you personally but I think the reason such a view point would never gain widespread support amongst the Biblical literalists (especially in the US) is it would torpedo their plan to get Christianity into the American school system using Creationism/ID as a Trojan Horse.
[1]Within the last ten years a guy where I work went from being not at all religious to being a born-again fundy. He firmly believes that dinosaur fossils are planted by Satan to mislead us, so I know this viewpoint exists albeit in a slightly different context.

Oops! Wrong Planet

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 122 of 239 (327574)
06-29-2006 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
06-29-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Just a little question
Faith writes:
If you were as absolutely convinced of the truth of the Bible account of the flood as a fundamentalist is, absolutely without a doubt knowing that it happened as described, knowing that God is the inspirer of the whole thing, how would you go about answering science's contention that it didn't happen?
I would think it sufficient to answer with "God works in mysterious ways."
or
"Maybe the Bible isn't in conflict with science. God works in mysterious ways."

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ptman
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 239 (328082)
07-01-2006 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
06-29-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Just a little question
quote:
Let me just ask: If you were as absolutely convinced of the truth of the Bible account of the flood as a fundamentalist is, absolutely without a doubt knowing that it happened as described, knowing that God is the inspirer of the whole thing, how would you go about answering science's contention that it didn't happen?
I think I would have to answer it as Kurt Wise does, that in spite of the evidence against and complete lack of evidence for my position, I believe it because I take it on faith that the Bible is correct.
It is at least an honest answer.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 239 (328083)
07-01-2006 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ptman
07-01-2006 6:57 PM


Re: Just a little question
I think I would have to answer it as Kurt Wise does, that in spite of the evidence against and complete lack of evidence for my position, I believe it because I take it on faith that the Bible is correct.
It is at least an honest answer.
That's the only answer so far given that I can agree with wholeheartedly.
But I do think there are some scientific points that can be made myself, so one tries to make them.

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Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 125 of 239 (328085)
07-01-2006 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ptman
07-01-2006 6:57 PM


Re: Just a little question
quote:
It is at least an honest answer.
It is an honest answer and nobody has a problem with that. However in those forums (the science ones) it counts for nothing. Otherwise Atheists like me could just argue that it's untrue because "the bible is very far-fetched".
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 126 of 239 (328159)
07-01-2006 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
07-01-2006 7:03 PM


Re: Just a little question
But I do think there are some scientific points that can be made myself,....
But it should give you pause that everyone on this board who has had extensive scientific training disagrees that you have managed to make any scientific points in defense of the YEC position.
Edited by deerbreh, : Fix quote codes

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 127 of 239 (328161)
07-01-2006 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by deerbreh
07-01-2006 10:05 PM


Re: Just a little question
But it should give you pause that everyone on this board who has had extensive scientific training disagrees that you have managed to make any scientific points in defense of the YEC position.
When you make some points you KNOW are decent points and they get treated like dirt it makes you less than trusting of the opposition's fairmindedness. I can only assume a sort of work-conditioned blindness since I don't impute evil motives to them.
I don't have in mind only points I personally make, though, but the whole creationist enterprise is treated like dirt, everything they have to say is ridiculed, lengths gone to it seems to me to invent discrediting language against them, and to impute evil motives to them.
Sorry, this getting off topic is becoming too frequent

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 135 by nator, posted 07-02-2006 9:52 AM Faith has replied

  
AdminFaith
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 239 (328165)
07-01-2006 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
07-01-2006 10:18 PM


Off topic warning
OK, I will try out my Admin alterego in order to give myself and any others here a warning that
THE TOPIC HERE IS HOW THE ANIMALS WERE FED ON THE ARK, AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS OFF TOPIC. PUHLEEZE SHAPE UP, FAITH, AND EVERYBODY ELSE YOU'VE DRAWN OFF TOPIC.
Edited by AdminFaith, : No reason given.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 129 of 239 (328224)
07-02-2006 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
06-27-2006 1:17 PM


Re: Dino's you say?
quote:
Don't be ridiculous. We're talking about a space as big as a football field with three stories of that size.
So how come nobody has ever built a scale replica and tried to launch it to see if it would be seaworthy?
Sure, it would be expensive, but I'll bet that if a few of these rich preachers like Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson puitched in they could easily finance it, especially when they call upon their faithful to contibute.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. There is a thread available concerning the Ark itself. The Ark - materials, construction and seaworthness
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

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 Message 16 by Faith, posted 06-27-2006 1:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 130 of 239 (328227)
07-02-2006 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
06-27-2006 3:59 PM


Re: a way little or no food was required
quote:
In any case, animals confined in stalls and cages for a year aren't going to be consuming a lot of calories.
Horses need to eat grass or hay almost constantly or their guts don't work properly. Also, they need to move about almost constantly for the same reason.
Anyway, are you going to address the OP or not?

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 Message 27 by Faith, posted 06-27-2006 3:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 131 of 239 (328229)
07-02-2006 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
06-27-2006 4:20 PM


Re: Can we get a number?
quote:
A horse? I would guess that some 90% of the creatures on board the ark were not as big as a horse.
The horses that existed in the middle east at that time were not very big; large ponies, really.
No larger than around 700 pounds I'd imagine.
Lots of animals are larger than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 06-27-2006 4:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 132 of 239 (328231)
07-02-2006 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by deerbreh
06-27-2006 4:41 PM


Re: Can we get a number?
quote:
I don't think Noah had a conventional baler let alone a bulk baler. Who knows. though. It doesn't say he didn't so that is good enough for some.
What I want to know is how Noah got ahold of that much hay, anyway?
Or even half that much.
Didn't he live pretty much in a desert?

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 133 of 239 (328232)
07-02-2006 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by nwr
06-27-2006 11:15 PM


Re: Eating after they land
quote:
They will need feed afterwards. A long lasting global flood will kill most vegetation. The seeds might survive, but it will take a while for those to germinate and grow. For grass eaters, it might only be a few weeks before there is sufficient. For those that feed on tree foliage, it will take a while longer.
Of course, all of the soil on the earth will be saturated in salt because the seas mixed with the fresh water.
This makes the soil inhospitable to many plants until the salt levels go down.
It looks to me like all of the weakened, starved herbivores would have been gobbled up by the weakened, starved carnivores since there wouldn't have been anything for them to eat, either.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 134 of 239 (328237)
07-02-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
06-29-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Just a little question
quote:
Let me just ask: If you were as absolutely convinced of the truth of the Bible account of the flood as a fundamentalist is, absolutely without a doubt knowing that it happened as described, knowing that God is the inspirer of the whole thing, how would you go about answering science's contention that it didn't happen?
God made it happen, even though it doesn't look like it.
Miracles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 06-29-2006 2:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 135 of 239 (328238)
07-02-2006 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
07-01-2006 10:18 PM


Re: Just a little question
quote:
I don't have in mind only points I personally make, though, but the whole creationist enterprise is treated like dirt, everything they have to say is ridiculed,
Welcome to the rigors of scientific debate.
This is what it's like, faith. Academic scientists are this brutal to each other's (and their own) ideas all of the time. It's part and parcel of their job.
What you characterize as "treating like dirt" is really just normal vigorous dissection of the facts and logic of a claim.
It seems that you get bent out of shape that people don't simply agree with you because you say so.
quote:
lengths gone to it seems to me to invent discrediting language against them,
No need to invent any.
quote:
and to impute evil motives to them.
Pot, kettle, black.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 07-01-2006 10:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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