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Author Topic:   The Ark - materials, construction and seaworthness
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 76 of 231 (327693)
06-30-2006 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by ikabod
06-30-2006 6:13 AM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
Don't forget you have ~ 4.5 billion-5000 years of biomass that "went extinct" during the flood to fertilize everywhere.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ikabod, posted 06-30-2006 6:13 AM ikabod has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 77 of 231 (327709)
06-30-2006 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by iano
06-30-2006 5:21 AM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
Consider: if a 'lifeboat' float had sufficient buoyancy to carry 40 people without being submerged and that resistance to submersion was instead directed into a pump by the rolling action of the ark then poo you would most certainly pump.
If "resistance to submersion" were redirected into a pump, instead of being used to resist submersion, then the lifeboat would sink. Once it sunk there would be nothing there to help the pump.

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ikabod
Member (Idle past 4492 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 78 of 231 (327726)
06-30-2006 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by RAZD
06-30-2006 7:17 AM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
true BUT the neutrients will have been wash out and disolved into the water , so are much more likely to end up in the oceans / seas /lake post flood that on the land , and look at the land around mt arrat not very good looking to start farming on ....
i am assuming no massive seaweed growth during the flood , and as we do not know how deep the water got after covering the last mountain , can we assume it was mt everest ?? at that time , very deep water will mean massive water pressure and zero light at the land s level
also considering the range of animals in the ark some poo couls have been used as fuel for heat / cooking /drying etc .. some poo and urine is used in cloth and leather working , again a stock could be built up , until the animal where free and could repopulate the land and provide for the people .
maybe the orginal ballast of the ark could be dropped over the side and the poo packed down as new ballast to store until needed .
Alo given that all would be eating dried stores from the arks food supplies the amount of poo per day would be less as time passed , dried food taking longer to digest ......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 06-30-2006 7:17 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 79 of 231 (327735)
06-30-2006 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by RAZD
06-30-2006 7:16 AM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
You are adding an unneccessary level of complication to a simple system and in the process introducing elements that are hard to maintain -- do you want to fix a leak in the float? If the float fails what is your backup?
An animal operated screw auger would be an easier way of shifting the poo but practically speaking, one of the major constraints on board is manpower. Anything we can do to reduce manpower input on board should be considered before embarking. The complication is increased (a bit - a horse drawn pump is a mechanism too)
We might expect the float to leak just like a rowing boat would. Occasional draining would be required. This is relatively easy to achieve. Lock the pump mechanism when rolling has it in a high position and activate a drain or bail it out. Barring catastrophic failure, once a week or so should be enough. Far less labour than chenging teams of animals would entail.
You would of course have a number of pumps on board to handle irreparable failure. Its common practice to have backup sytems for such an essential mission. Its not hard to built a reliable, fairly watertight float in any case.
What are the loads on the float suspension arms fore and aft as well as athwartship? If the arm fails laterally there will be no pumping action.
The loads are virtually all vertical: tensile and compressive. An earlier post dealt which placing the float and connecting arm in a shaft (like a liftshaft) located against the inside wall of the ark whose bottom is open to the sea. This eliminates drag and wind loading. The water in the shaft moves with the ark and can only rise and fall with rolling - which does not apply side loads
Wooden sailing ships leaked constantly, and if this kind of thing would have had benefit over the pump system they used (manpower - cheap and readily available as well as inspired by self preservation to keep working) they would have tried it.
We haven't got the manpower available to bail out. And maintaining animals so as they can bail out is too labour intensive. Needs must.
And how do you prevent water from coming in all those 'ventilation' byproducts?
Don't get you here

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by RAZD, posted 06-30-2006 7:16 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by DrJones*, posted 07-01-2006 9:37 PM iano has replied
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alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 4288 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 80 of 231 (328132)
07-01-2006 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
06-28-2006 3:16 AM


ck asked writes:
What was the ark constructed of?
Have no idea what gopher wood is , going with teakthat has been pitched
ck asked writes:
Given it's dimensions would it have been seaworthy?
A 137.6 meterlong flat bottom boat : On a river yes out to sea calm okay but with a rain fall equal to.1 meteres an hour no
ck asked writes:
How would such a vessel release the signiificant waste of the animals it contained?
Just install an aqueduct system. The ducts could be open in the animal holding area . Thus the rain water flows down through the ducts the waste is shoveled into the ducts. The water then transports the waste to a holding area that allows pressure build up. then it uses the pressure to flow the waste out of the ship.No need for pump systems at all.

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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 81 of 231 (328150)
07-01-2006 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by iano
06-30-2006 10:19 AM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
any reply to Message 70?

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 06-30-2006 10:19 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 82 of 231 (328156)
07-01-2006 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by alacrity fitzhugh
07-01-2006 8:45 PM


Just install an aqueduct system. The ducts could be open in the animal holding area . Thus the rain water flows down through the ducts the waste is shoveled into the ducts. The water then transports the waste to a holding area that allows pressure build up. then it uses the pressure to flow the waste out of the ship.No need for pump systems at all.
What about when it quits raining? Still have 325 days to go. It is either lower buckets into the sea or pumps. Plus there is the water leaking into the bilge of a 450 foot long wooden boat. I definitely think some kind of pumps are needed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 07-01-2006 8:45 PM alacrity fitzhugh has replied

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alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 4288 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 83 of 231 (328162)
07-01-2006 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by deerbreh
07-01-2006 9:57 PM


quote:
What about when it quits raining?
Then the ship is screwed. The rolling is also gone so any pumps that work on that effect also will not work!

Sometimes I don't know why we'd rather live than die,
we look up towards the sky for answers to our lives.
We may get some solutions but most just pass us by,
don't want your absolution cause I can't make it right

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 84 of 231 (328163)
07-01-2006 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by DrJones*
07-01-2006 9:37 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
Not really DJ. In discussing this I am presupposing an ark to fit it into in the first place. In using materials for the pump I suppose them to be suitable for general ark building. Which makes them adequate for the purposes proposed.
if we can suppose nothing at all then no discussion is possible. So I won't be able to discuss it with you. Your question led to that conclusion for it allowed no assumption

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by DrJones*, posted 07-01-2006 9:37 PM DrJones* has replied

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 85 of 231 (328164)
07-01-2006 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by alacrity fitzhugh
07-01-2006 10:20 PM


You mean ships only roll when it rains? Gee!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 07-01-2006 10:20 PM alacrity fitzhugh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 07-01-2006 10:35 PM iano has not replied

  
alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 4288 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 86 of 231 (328168)
07-01-2006 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by iano
07-01-2006 10:21 PM


quote:
You mean ships only roll when it rains? Gee!
Ah my mistake "the rolling would diminish to a point that it would not be able to create a force necessary for your pump system to work"

Sometimes I don't know why we'd rather live than die,
we look up towards the sky for answers to our lives.
We may get some solutions but most just pass us by,
don't want your absolution cause I can't make it right

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by iano, posted 07-01-2006 10:21 PM iano has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 87 of 231 (328169)
07-01-2006 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by iano
07-01-2006 10:20 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
Deleting. Never mind.
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by iano, posted 07-01-2006 10:20 PM iano has not replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 88 of 231 (328287)
07-02-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by iano
07-01-2006 10:20 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
if we can suppose nothing at all then no discussion is possible. So I won't be able to discuss it with you.
What you really are saying is that if we aren't going to allow "deus ex machina" solutions and inventions more than four millenia before their time then no discussion is possible. Well welcome to the world of reality where we can't rely on miracles and "back to the future" solutions. Come up with supposed solutions that have a basis in two millenia B.C. reality and maybe we can discuss it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by iano, posted 07-01-2006 10:20 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 07-02-2006 3:15 PM deerbreh has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 89 of 231 (328298)
07-02-2006 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by deerbreh
07-02-2006 2:49 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
Floats, levers, pivots = back to the future? Simple materials + intelligence. Nothing more is required. And if nothing more is required than that then it is possible. Very possible
Your objections are based on your own presumptions. Fine. But lets not fool ourselves that your presumptions circumvent what is easily possible
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 90 of 231 (328306)
07-02-2006 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by iano
07-02-2006 3:15 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
iano writes:
Your objections are based on your own presumptions.
No, the objections are based on history. If your Rube Goldberg device is as practical as you claim, show us where it has been used in history.
... lets not fool ourselves that your presumptions circumvent what is easily possible
Let's not fool ourselves that every conjecture is "easily possible". Let's see a demonstration.
Edited by Ringo, : Spelling

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