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Author | Topic: Does The Flood Add up? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Just for the record, I've never argued for eggs. I've considered the possibility that young dinosaurs might have been taken, but I'm most persuaded by the idea that the particular species of that Kind that was taken on the ark was a smaller Kind, while all the big ones died in the flood. The species that was taken might still have produced some giants afterward, depending on how much genetic diversity was still present in the genome.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Keep in mind that nobody KNOWS anything for sure about anything concerning the past, including you evos.
Of course we know things about the past. We are not talking about the distant past we talking about 4,500 years ago.It's all speculative imagination. Nice try but we do know quite a bit about what the world was like 4,500 years ago. You are talking about the time of the 4th Eqyptian dynasty after all, not billions of years ago. Yes, and the written record of the Bible trumps all the reconstructed history from archaeology you can come up with to "prove" the timing of the Egyptian dynasties. One written record that has been passed down intact for millennia is worth more than all that after-the-fact reconstruction.
Geographic isolation of different species is quite common. Odd but true that these odd types end up in this one place. Not implausible to my mind that various of them evolved from various parent types that happened to be on the part of the land mass that became Australia. I suggest you look at a map of the earth before the break up of Pangea. Here is a link to a MAPIt is a long way from the Middle East to Australia. Among the animals that somehow got there are the Koala, which only lives in Eucalyptus trees, the marsupial mole, a small nearly blind animal that only lives in sandy soil and the echidna, an awarkward marsupial version of the porcupine. How did these animals not only make that long trip before the continents broke up, but get there ahead of all "kinds" of placenatal mammals that are much better travelers. Why did they make this long hike back to where they just happen to have a fossil record? Did they also make this long hike up to get on the ark? There are no flood deposited fossils of modern Australian marsupials or montremes anywhere in Europe or Asia. There are lots of different maps of Pangaea on the web. Some I've seen show it to be a lot more compact than the one you put up. But certainly those are good questions to think about. I would also think that evolution wouldn't have any easier time explaining it than a YEC.
Then how did these little animals make it all the way back to Australia before the continents split up? How long after the flood was that? Maybe during the 6th Egyptian dynasty if the flood was during the 4th. The timing of the Egyptian dynasties is obviously off.
We do know how continents move and how they have been moving for billions of years. You know ONLY how they move NOW, not how they have been moving for any great time in the past, not even how they moved a hundred years ago for sure.
Sea floor is subducted in subduction zones and created at spreading centers. This necessarily produces new ocean crust and lithosphere and it is hot. Would you like to give us a geophysical model for moving the continents around that doesn't involve subduction and seafloor spreading? No, that is the way it happens. It just happened faster 4500 years ago and has since slowed down.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Another thing, all of your arguments hinge on assumptions and belief that the Bible is accurate to the word. Definitely.
You say "if we assume this, and then assume this, all these assumptions and the conclusions we can draw from them are self-supporting" (not in those words). The problem is that you have nothing but assumptions. Based on the Bible as accurate report, yes, that is true, plus some known facts about genetics and fossils and the like, which certainly others know better than I do. And what do you have? Reconstructions of the past based on the uniformitarian assumption and some known facts, and speculations of exactly the same sort I'm doing based on those things.
You can use the Bible as evidence in some places, but not here, these are the Science Forums. You need some scientific evidence. You can't just come up with one assumption after another in support of your view. Even if the math works out, that doesn't mean anything, because all of the evidence works against you. It holds together quite nicely as a consistent picture, and that ought to count for a great deal. However, now that you are pulling science rank against the Bible, this is probably why I didn't post on this thread originally. I don't know if it was you or somebody else that was complaining that no YECs had posted on this thread, but that's probably why. There's no point in any of us posting on a science thread given the specific demands made on such a thread, violations of which get us suspended all the time. So. Sorry I posted anything at all here. It really belonged in Theological Creationism and ID.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It took merely Jacob and his family of twelve sons and their families to grow to more than a million Israelites in Egypt in 400 years starting around 1850 BC or so. It is mathematically possible. So we'd assume that the Egyptians had multiplied on a similar scale after the Flood a few hundred years earlier, and that pyramid-building was what the Israelites were doing there. Yes, we just assume different dates.
Except it makes no mention of pyramid building in the Bible. Nor do the pyramids show any evidence of having been built by Israelites. They may not have been building pyramids since their work had to do with brick-making rather than rock-hewing-and-hauling. But the absence of a mention of pyramids in the Bible is no evidence that they weren't known at the time or that their work had nothing at all to do with them. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I am rushing and haven't given this site the reading it deserves but I only see mention of ONE fossil marsupial find. And fossil evidence that placental mammals did once live in the area. Perhaps someone would like to start a thread specifically on this subject. I'm sure I'd be more of an observer than a participant.
http://www.naturalworlds.org/...ucing/about_marsupials_5.htm As for this being a science thread, yes, I regret posting on it. There's nothing less rewarding than being nagged about sticking to science rules when the kind of evidence I have is something else. Got sucked in by challenges to YECs. Belongs in the Theological Creationism and ID forum. Too bad.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sorry but the "written record" of the Bible was written well after the written records of the Egyptians and the Summerians. You can't use the myth of Biblical infallability to substantiate the myth of a worldwide flood. YOU can't, but I don't regard it as a myth. Its authenticity and internal integrity and the quality of its details and concepts make it THE authoritative record over all other records. NEVERTHELESS I've agreed this does not belong on this thread but in the Theological Creationism forum where the Bible can be used as evidence. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So first you say we don't know how they moved even a hundred years ago and then you say they moved by suduction and spreading but faster. Semantic confusion. I just meant you don't know how FAST they moved then. Sheesh. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Fast movement might be possible but it would have left a very different geology on the ocean floors and released enough heat that either the crust and lithosphere would still be molten or the average temperature of the earth would be too high to sustain most life including us. This is quite easy to show. Well, try rethinking it from the ASSUMPTION that the flood DID occur 4500 years ago and that the movement of the tectonic plates DID start then. That's what a YEC has to do, since we don't have the luxury of taking every bit of mathematical debunkery that comes down the pike as gospel truth as you do.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Right, the whole Bible is nothing but a made-up novel pretending to be fact and everybody who believes it is nothing but an idiot, all those who believed it back when it was written right up to now, and it doesn't matter that the same people know fiction when they see it, we're all idiots anyway and can't tell a real genealogy from a fake one. Not hard at all to make up a genealogy that spans 1500 years and maintains its consistency. Not at all. Great. Now go ahead and congratulate me for realizing the truth.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yeah I know the history whereby supposed Christians abandoned their faith for fallible science. Sad history. Some stupid stuff they actually accepted, a seeming arrangement of fossils supposedly proving descent. Now that is truly idiotic. In any case my assumptions are based on God's revelations and nothing so flimsy as a scientific theory.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The point was that it was a huge leap from a mere arrangement of dead things to the idea that they descended from one another, no matter WHAT the actual explanation for the arrangement is. There is nothing logical about such a leap. Especially if you take into account the discrete sediments in which the fossils are buried, which can't possibly mark off eras of time. Seeing that all that is stupid doesn't require me to know how the flood laid it all down. THAT is a stupid expectation in itself.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Your personal comments are a violation of the forum guidelines as usual, but we just let you get away with it because we like you.
As for your contention about the science threads, I regret ever posting on one, and in fact said so a number of times on this very thread. See
Message 268 Message 273 and
Message 274. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I've read quite a bit.
Anybody who really cares about the truth doesn't discard God's own revelation as lightly as it appears many have, just on the basis of fallible human science.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Shallow and insulting describes you too, Mr. Pot.
Stupid idea that because I believe YECs respect God's revelation and all others compromise it, that makes YECs God. But yes, I do believe that if you refuse to accept the Bible inerrantist reading of Genesis you are denying God. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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