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Author Topic:   Unethical practices in Evangelism. What is the value of the conversions?
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 1 of 105 (329206)
07-06-2006 3:55 AM


I admit I do not particularly like evangelism. I find it presumptuous, and insulting.
However, there are some evangelistic efforts that are much more irritating and unethical than the average effort. What is the value of a conversion if it is based on lies and deceit?
Does the ends justify the means??
There are some specific incidences I am thinking of. I will relate two of them here. The first one happened to a friend of mine. She signed up to a ”Jewish singles’ web site, and dated this guy a few times , who claimed to be a ”non-denominational’ temple (which she thought was odd). After about a half dozen dates, he suddenly tried to convert her to Christianity. Until the conversion attempt, he presented himself as Jewish.
The second story was related to me by a Roman Catholic that worked in an old folks home. There was an old Jewish lady at the nursing home that had Alzheimer’s.. This rabbi came to take her to Friday night services. It turns out this ”rabbi’ was one of the Jew’s for Jesus, and put this woman on very strong arm tactics to try to convert her.
In case people aren’t aware, the “Jews for Jesus” founder was a minister for 10 years before starting Jews for Jesus (he wasn’t a Jew), and to a large extent, the J4J are financed by the Southern Baptists. There are a number of Southern Baptist ministers on the J4J’s board of directors. It is a specific effort by the Southern Baptists to try to convert Jews.
Again.. what is the value of a conversion that was based on lies? How about the people who figure out the deceit and leave because of feeling betrayed? Are the unethical methods a stain on all evangelistic efforts? Why or why not?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 07-06-2006 4:19 AM ramoss has replied
 Message 6 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 4:53 AM ramoss has replied
 Message 51 by riVeRraT, posted 07-07-2006 9:31 AM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 7 of 105 (329265)
07-06-2006 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
07-06-2006 4:19 AM


The point is that he gave up his Jewish faith long before he started "Jews for Jesus"> He was a minister for a christian church for 10 years.
The vast numbers of "Jews for Jesus" are not even of Jewish heritage.
You might say it is 'just his life's work', but it is based on deceptive practices and lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 07-06-2006 4:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 07-07-2006 5:53 PM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 8 of 105 (329267)
07-06-2006 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
07-06-2006 4:31 AM


THat is correct. In the example above, they also were putting strong armed pressure tactices on a vulnerable person... an elderly woman with alzheimer's. They lied about taking her to a traditional Jewish service and isolated her to put strong armed tactics about trying to get her to convert. Her mind was deterorated enough that she was very vulnerable.
The first one was an attempt to get Jewish women to convert by misrepresenting himself as a Jew in a Jewish singles dating site. I assume he thought that 'lonely' jewish women would join chrisitnity for compaigionship.
Both cases it was an attempt to target 'vulnerable' people by misrepresentation. (Although I suspect that the dating site guy didn't get to far).

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 Message 4 by Jon, posted 07-06-2006 4:31 AM Jon has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 9 of 105 (329270)
07-06-2006 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
07-06-2006 4:46 AM


Well, I disagree with you somewhat. You do realise that the vast majority of 'Messanic Jews" are being funded by various Evangalistic
Christians in an effort to 'evangalise' to the Jews. That makes the practices deceptive.
Jon has answered his opinion. Are conversions based on deception really that valid? What about the 'missonaries' that use this deception?

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 10 of 105 (329272)
07-06-2006 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by iano
07-06-2006 4:53 AM


So, in your opinion, lies when it comes to trying to convert someone is ok. The end justifies the means?
And it's ok to strongly prostyelise to people when they have gone through an emotional upset, or are unable to properly think ,such
as that poor lady with dementia??
Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 9:51 AM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 12 of 105 (329277)
07-06-2006 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by iano
07-06-2006 9:51 AM


So, it's ok for the JW to come and prosytlise to someone of the mainstream Christian faith when they are vulnerable, and show them that the Trinity is not in the bible?? How about the practices of the Mormons?
How about the scientologists??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 9:51 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 9:59 AM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 14 of 105 (329286)
07-06-2006 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by iano
07-06-2006 9:59 AM


So, when your side does the same practices, it is ok.. but when someone does those exact same practices against your beliefs, it 'is straight from satan's rectum' in your words.
Why the double standard there? Is not morality 'objective'? The same action (bringing someone closer to a heartfelt belief in god) is moral in yoru eyes in one case, but immoral in another.
What if your beliefs are incorrect, and the JW's or the Mormons are correct? Wouldn't it make YOUR practices immmoral, and theirs moral?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 9:59 AM iano has replied

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 Message 15 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 10:16 AM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 16 of 105 (329298)
07-06-2006 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by iano
07-06-2006 10:16 AM


No, they are not. (well, both the J.W's and the Mormons claim to be christian. The J.W's might have the better claim of it than the Mormon's, and both of them have better claims than the Messanic Jews have of being Jewish).
The point is, the evangalistic tactics are the same. All of the evanglistic efforts have the method of going out of their way to target people that are going through hard times, or have had an emotional upset in their life, or in some respects emotionally vulnerable.
Are you specifically saying 'Yes, it is ok for my religion to do that to others, but it is not ok for other religions to use the same methods to try to convert people who belong to my religion to theirs'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 10:16 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 11:07 AM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 28 of 105 (329339)
07-06-2006 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by iano
07-06-2006 11:07 AM


The reason why people are so emotionally vunerable is that they have not Christ. Take my neighbour: her life is without hope. She wants a husband but at 40 sees that as some unscalable barrier.
Actually, I am thinking of someone in a mainstream christian religion that is emotionally vulnerable right now, being targeted by J.W.'s. She has been very devote. but is going through hard times right now. That sort of nullifies your claim, doesn't it?

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 30 of 105 (329343)
07-06-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by iano
07-06-2006 11:09 AM


I am absolutely right in my central beliefs: God exists, salvation by faith alone etc. I don't see that evil necessarily follows. You forget that I have the Holy Spirit indwelling. He is a good guide if consulted. And a poor one if not.
From the outside looking in, you absolutely wrong in your beliefs.
From your reaction of the JW's prostylising to mainstream Christians, could you see that from a devote Jew, Hindu, or Muslim, there is very
little difference between a mainstream Evangalistic Christian and a Mormon or JW. All those want to lure people away from the worship of God, and worship a false god instead (From their perspective).
Can you see that they might feel the same kind of resentment against
mainstream evangalistic christianity as you do against mormons and Jehohvah witnesses?
\

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 Message 21 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 11:09 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 12:08 PM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 37 of 105 (329360)
07-06-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by iano
07-06-2006 12:08 PM


You say you don't resent it, yet you call it 'the work from the satan's rectum'. Why the cognative disconnect there?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 38 of 105 (329361)
07-06-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by iano
07-06-2006 12:14 PM


Re: How can any Irishman complain...
And how do you know that your evangelic efforts are not Satan in you?
Particularly, since you have no problems in the use of lies , deceit, and other practices I personally would classify as unethical.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 52 of 105 (329570)
07-07-2006 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by riVeRraT
07-07-2006 9:31 AM


How about the approaching of people when they are in a vulnerable state, such as their marriage is being on the rocks, the death of a loved one, or , in one of the examples, a woman with a diminished mental capacitiy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by riVeRraT, posted 07-07-2006 9:31 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by riVeRraT, posted 07-07-2006 9:43 AM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 55 of 105 (329576)
07-07-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by riVeRraT
07-07-2006 9:43 AM


Yet, there are certain times people are much more vulnerable than others. How about when those people are targeted?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by riVeRraT, posted 07-07-2006 9:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by riVeRraT, posted 07-07-2006 10:28 AM ramoss has not replied
 Message 57 by iano, posted 07-07-2006 10:46 AM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 58 of 105 (329588)
07-07-2006 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by iano
07-07-2006 10:46 AM


So, you have no problem with the J.W's going to my friend during a difficult time in her marriage, and showing her that the trinity is not in the bible then. You don't see that as an unethical use of evangalism. After all, the J.W's, have the salvation of my friend at stake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by iano, posted 07-07-2006 10:46 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by iano, posted 07-07-2006 11:19 AM ramoss has replied

  
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