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Author Topic:   Unethical practices in Evangelism. What is the value of the conversions?
iano
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 31 of 105 (329349)
07-06-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Brian
07-06-2006 11:50 AM


Re: True colours
No it isn't, it is fear of breaking God's commandment.

Hardly. I break Gods commandments all the time in thought word and deed. I would prefer not to and do take steps to avoid doing so. I don't fear God in any craven sense.

You are contradicting yourself. You say that you are correct and therefore not a bigot, now you are not sure?

Sorry. I should have said "prove to you". Me, I'm as sure as I need to be.

The world isn't round.

Bloody eck, you are scraping the bottom of the argumentitive barrel today Brian.

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Mespo
Member (Idle past 995 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 32 of 105 (329350)
07-06-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by iano
07-06-2006 11:32 AM


How can any Irishman complain...
Yup. Straight from satans rectum. I don't say that the Buddhist doing so would consider himself as being manipulative. Nor the mormon or the JW. More accurately, he is being manipulated by his boss, Satan. Until we are sons of God we are ALL children of Satan and conform to daddies desire for us.

**************
How can you possibly say that a Buddhist is being manipulated by Satan when your own blood-soaked history of Protestant vs. Catholic required NO outside interference of any kind. Sincere Christians exterminating sincere Christians. Who gets credit for that one, iano?

Maybe there are those tormented Irish souls who want to hear a message other than Christianity, given what Christians have done to the place.

(:raig

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iano
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 33 of 105 (329351)
07-06-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ramoss
07-06-2006 11:58 AM


Can you see that they might feel the same kind of resentment against mainstream evangalistic christianity as you do against mormons and Jehohvah witnesses?

Firstly I don't resent them. There is a JW who pops round to me from time to time and he is a dead nice bloke. I don't resent him at all. Nor one of my best friends who is a Buddhist and attempted to evangelize me when I was still in seek-mode. I do get a little pissed with the likes of Jar and Ringo and Brian for example purely because the out and out blasphemy they regularily propagate. I work on that with varying degrees of success and failure. By and large I don't resent anyone

Secondly: sure other god-reps might view me in the way that I view them - misguided or manipulative or whatever. It cannot be helped.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 34 of 105 (329352)
07-06-2006 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by iano
07-06-2006 12:02 PM


Re: True colours
Hardly. I break Gods commandments all the time in thought word and deed. I would prefer not to and do take steps to avoid doing so. I don't fear God in any craven sense.

Some are easier to keep than others, some are percieved to be 'bigger' than others. The murder one could be a bit more serious than the wanting to hump your best pal's wife one! :p

Sorry. I should have said "prove to you". Me, I'm as sure as I need to be.

And the Buddhist is as sure as they need to be that their beliefs are true.

How do I know that Christianity isn't from Satan, and that Jesus was satan in disguise, sent with false teachings to lead the masses away from Yahweh?

Bloody eck, you are scraping the bottom of the argumentitive barrel today Brian.

I know. :laugh: But I know how you fundies think the world is a flat disc, just keeping you in touch. And I have a f*cker of a headache!

Brian.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 35 of 105 (329358)
07-06-2006 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by iano
07-06-2006 12:08 PM


Blasphemy, blashemy, they all have it blasphemy
I do get a little pissed with the likes of Jar and Ringo and Brian

How can I blaspheme when I know there is no God? I am right about this, because I know I am right about this, and all theists are wrong. It is impossible to blaspheme

Brian.

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iano
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 36 of 105 (329359)
07-06-2006 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Mespo
07-06-2006 12:02 PM


Re: How can any Irishman complain...
Christians are manipulated by Satan too. Very often they get special attention. Think of it in terms of spiritual warfare. If you were Satan, in which direction would you lob your mortars if not right into enemy headquarters?

I can even watch him at work in me. I see myself being tempted and then giving in to that temptation. Its as plain as the nose on your face.

Small point but the 'troubles' had buggar all to do with Religion in fact. That was just sheer hatred at work. Christianity is not about hating anyone

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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3100
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 37 of 105 (329360)
07-06-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by iano
07-06-2006 12:08 PM


You say you don't resent it, yet you call it 'the work from the satan's rectum'. Why the cognative disconnect there?

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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3100
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 38 of 105 (329361)
07-06-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by iano
07-06-2006 12:14 PM


Re: How can any Irishman complain...
And how do you know that your evangelic efforts are not Satan in you?

Particularly, since you have no problems in the use of lies , deceit, and other practices I personally would classify as unethical.

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iano
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 39 of 105 (329363)
07-06-2006 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Brian
07-06-2006 12:13 PM


Re: Blasphemy, blashemy, they all have it blasphemy
I fail to understand how someone could know God doesn't exist. But if that is what you know (within the constraints of possible knowing God does not exist = belief) then fine. One day we will all find out. Or not - depending on who's knowing is knowledge

According to the Bible you do know he exists but simply deny he does. In which case you knew you were blaspheming but denied that you were.

Pleading not guilty doesn't make one not guilty.

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iano
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 40 of 105 (329365)
07-06-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ramoss
07-06-2006 12:17 PM


Re: How can any Irishman complain...
Some of what I do is less than kosher - that is true. But in essence, when I speak of the what the gospel is and what God is like etc then that is based on direct experience of Him. My testimony is true.

I can tell the difference between Satan operating in me and God operating in me in the same fashion as one can tell chalk from cheese. Satan is a master deceiver he wraps things up and twists things in such a way as to get through defences. But you always know you are choosing for him. His fruit is rotten and it ain't hard to taste rotten fruit when you've been around it for a while.

Particularly, since you have no problems in the use of lies , deceit, and other practices I personally would classify as unethical.

I would have a problem with it and try avoid doing it. But one does slip at times. It wouldn't form the backbone of what I do however. It is not the main event

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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 41 of 105 (329369)
07-06-2006 12:25 PM


Stop - Off Topic
Please stick to the topic.

When unethical practices are used, "What is the value of the conversions?"

The OP gave specific examples of misrepresenation. This is not a discussion on Iano's beliefs.

Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.

I don't have time to tag all off topic posts, just the last few. Please do not continue that line of discussion.

Thank you

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1003 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 42 of 105 (329423)
07-06-2006 2:58 PM


What about child evangelism?
I have always thought that evangelism of children can get very manipulative and in the long run, be harmful. High pressure tactics designed to get very young children to "make a decision" for Christ seems wrong to me. I think children should be exposed to religious ideas and values and be allowed a lot of space and time to decide what sort of spiritual path they want to take.
Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2022 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 43 of 105 (329436)
07-06-2006 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by deerbreh
07-06-2006 2:58 PM


Re: What about child evangelism?
Not to condone any particular evangelistic tactic but you have to realize that for some of these people, they believe that until their child commits to Christ that they are doomed to hell. Imagine if you are a parent who truly believes in the doctrine of hell and of one particular plan of salvation. If you are a loving parent then you are going to try anything you can to make sure that does not happen.

This situation is worse in branches of Christianty that have a particular physical ritual that must occur before you are "saved". The pentecostals for example believe that you must be born again of water and the spirit before you are saved as evidenced by speaking in tongues. The water baptism is easy but then you have parents beside themselves if their kids have not yet spoken in tongues. Some kids fake it, some condition themselves into believing that they do it, some kids may even actually do it (who knows?). The point being that the pressure is there from the standpoint of the doctrine and parents are just trying to do the best for their kids so they don't end up in hell.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1568 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 44 of 105 (329439)
07-06-2006 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by deerbreh
07-06-2006 2:58 PM


Does it Stick?
The OP doesn't really present this as a discussion of whether evangelism is good or bad, but more about when deceit or misrepresentation is used.

I admit I do not particularly like evangelism. I find it presumptuous, and insulting.
However, there are some evangelistic efforts that are much more irritating and unethical than the average effort. What is the value of a conversion if it is based on lies and deceit?
Does the ends justify the means??

It reminds me of what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:

9:20-22
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

So it seems to be one of Paul's tactics. I don't see that type of tactic associated with Jesus though.

Even though deception was used when approaching the person, there has to be some point at which the person knows he/she is being spoken to concerning Christianity. At the time they convert, they know what choice they are making. We aren't talking about the Spanish Inquisition where the choice is convert or die.

I would think the validity would be determined by whether the conversion sticks or not.

quote:
I have always thought that evangelism of children can get very manipulative and in the long run, be harmful.
That's where it is the parents job to watch over who their children interact with so they aren't deceived or manipulated.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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iano
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 45 of 105 (329471)
07-06-2006 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by deerbreh
07-06-2006 2:58 PM


Re: What about child evangelism?
I have always thought that evangelism of children can get very manipulative and in the long run, be harmful. High pressure tactics designed to get very young children to "make a decision" for Christ seems wrong to me. I think children should be exposed to religious ideas and values and be allowed a lot of space and time to decide what sort of spiritual path they want to take.

I agree. Judging by the amount of people here who were thus exposed and have subsequently not only ploughed another furrow but are rabidly anti, I would conclude the 'tactic' stupid in the extreme.

If the parents are Christians though I can understand the concern unto over-the-top. Christian parents share the concerns for their children like most parents do. They make the same mistake that every evangelist does at some point: they think they can convert people

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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