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Author | Topic: Unethical practices in Evangelism. What is the value of the conversions? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
I admit I do not particularly like evangelism. I find it presumptuous, and insulting.
However, there are some evangelistic efforts that are much more irritating and unethical than the average effort. What is the value of a conversion if it is based on lies and deceit? Does the ends justify the means?? There are some specific incidences I am thinking of. I will relate two of them here. The first one happened to a friend of mine. She signed up to a ”Jewish singles’ web site, and dated this guy a few times , who claimed to be a ”non-denominational’ temple (which she thought was odd). After about a half dozen dates, he suddenly tried to convert her to Christianity. Until the conversion attempt, he presented himself as Jewish. The second story was related to me by a Roman Catholic that worked in an old folks home. There was an old Jewish lady at the nursing home that had Alzheimer’s.. This rabbi came to take her to Friday night services. It turns out this ”rabbi’ was one of the Jew’s for Jesus, and put this woman on very strong arm tactics to try to convert her. In case people aren’t aware, the “Jews for Jesus” founder was a minister for 10 years before starting Jews for Jesus (he wasn’t a Jew), and to a large extent, the J4J are financed by the Southern Baptists. There are a number of Southern Baptist ministers on the J4J’s board of directors. It is a specific effort by the Southern Baptists to try to convert Jews. Again.. what is the value of a conversion that was based on lies? How about the people who figure out the deceit and leave because of feeling betrayed? Are the unethical methods a stain on all evangelistic efforts? Why or why not?
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
The point is that he gave up his Jewish faith long before he started "Jews for Jesus"> He was a minister for a christian church for 10 years.
The vast numbers of "Jews for Jesus" are not even of Jewish heritage. You might say it is 'just his life's work', but it is based on deceptive practices and lies.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
THat is correct. In the example above, they also were putting strong armed pressure tactices on a vulnerable person... an elderly woman with alzheimer's. They lied about taking her to a traditional Jewish service and isolated her to put strong armed tactics about trying to get her to convert. Her mind was deterorated enough that she was very vulnerable.
The first one was an attempt to get Jewish women to convert by misrepresenting himself as a Jew in a Jewish singles dating site. I assume he thought that 'lonely' jewish women would join chrisitnity for compaigionship. Both cases it was an attempt to target 'vulnerable' people by misrepresentation. (Although I suspect that the dating site guy didn't get to far).
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Well, I disagree with you somewhat. You do realise that the vast majority of 'Messanic Jews" are being funded by various Evangalistic
Christians in an effort to 'evangalise' to the Jews. That makes the practices deceptive. Jon has answered his opinion. Are conversions based on deception really that valid? What about the 'missonaries' that use this deception?
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
So, in your opinion, lies when it comes to trying to convert someone is ok. The end justifies the means?
And it's ok to strongly prostyelise to people when they have gone through an emotional upset, or are unable to properly think ,suchas that poor lady with dementia?? Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
So, it's ok for the JW to come and prosytlise to someone of the mainstream Christian faith when they are vulnerable, and show them that the Trinity is not in the bible?? How about the practices of the Mormons?
How about the scientologists??
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
So, when your side does the same practices, it is ok.. but when someone does those exact same practices against your beliefs, it 'is straight from satan's rectum' in your words.
Why the double standard there? Is not morality 'objective'? The same action (bringing someone closer to a heartfelt belief in god) is moral in yoru eyes in one case, but immoral in another. What if your beliefs are incorrect, and the JW's or the Mormons are correct? Wouldn't it make YOUR practices immmoral, and theirs moral?
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
No, they are not. (well, both the J.W's and the Mormons claim to be christian. The J.W's might have the better claim of it than the Mormon's, and both of them have better claims than the Messanic Jews have of being Jewish).
The point is, the evangalistic tactics are the same. All of the evanglistic efforts have the method of going out of their way to target people that are going through hard times, or have had an emotional upset in their life, or in some respects emotionally vulnerable. Are you specifically saying 'Yes, it is ok for my religion to do that to others, but it is not ok for other religions to use the same methods to try to convert people who belong to my religion to theirs'?
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
The reason why people are so emotionally vunerable is that they have not Christ. Take my neighbour: her life is without hope. She wants a husband but at 40 sees that as some unscalable barrier.
Actually, I am thinking of someone in a mainstream christian religion that is emotionally vulnerable right now, being targeted by J.W.'s. She has been very devote. but is going through hard times right now. That sort of nullifies your claim, doesn't it?
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
I am absolutely right in my central beliefs: God exists, salvation by faith alone etc. I don't see that evil necessarily follows. You forget that I have the Holy Spirit indwelling. He is a good guide if consulted. And a poor one if not.
From the outside looking in, you absolutely wrong in your beliefs.From your reaction of the JW's prostylising to mainstream Christians, could you see that from a devote Jew, Hindu, or Muslim, there is very little difference between a mainstream Evangalistic Christian and a Mormon or JW. All those want to lure people away from the worship of God, and worship a false god instead (From their perspective). Can you see that they might feel the same kind of resentment againstmainstream evangalistic christianity as you do against mormons and Jehohvah witnesses? \
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
You say you don't resent it, yet you call it 'the work from the satan's rectum'. Why the cognative disconnect there?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
And how do you know that your evangelic efforts are not Satan in you?
Particularly, since you have no problems in the use of lies , deceit, and other practices I personally would classify as unethical.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
How about the approaching of people when they are in a vulnerable state, such as their marriage is being on the rocks, the death of a loved one, or , in one of the examples, a woman with a diminished mental capacitiy?
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Yet, there are certain times people are much more vulnerable than others. How about when those people are targeted?
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ramoss Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
So, you have no problem with the J.W's going to my friend during a difficult time in her marriage, and showing her that the trinity is not in the bible then. You don't see that as an unethical use of evangalism. After all, the J.W's, have the salvation of my friend at stake.
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