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Author Topic:   International opinions: USA on science!
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 16 of 132 (329314)
07-06-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by ramoss
07-06-2006 10:17 AM


A Freudian slip perhaps?
... too well funded by the religious reight.
You couldn't decide between right or reich?

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 132 (329342)
07-06-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dan Carroll
07-06-2006 10:03 AM


Re: Americans
quote:
Twice.
Once.
Maybe not even that.

"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 132 (329344)
07-06-2006 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hauk
07-05-2006 10:54 PM


quote:
I would like do discuss the opinions among americans about the ID theory and their political image outside the US.
As an American, I am rather embarrassed by all this myself. However, this is one issue that is an internal matter, and it is up to us whether or not we will look foolish.
What you should be more concerned about is the U.S. hyper-aggressive, unilateral foreign and military policies that definitely affect other people.

"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

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Hauk
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 132 (329379)
07-06-2006 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Chiroptera
07-06-2006 12:00 PM


Military agressiveness
As a non american I am very aware of the bad reputation USA has among some groups in regards of military operations etc, and many non americans are concerned about these thing. Sometimes the critics are fair and sometimes people just join the trend and blame the USA for everything. When it comes to religion and science however, I think many europeans consider this development (the ID controversy), to be a lot more alarming then your foreign policy. What I think many are affraid of, is the combination of religion and the agressive foreign policy you mention, should it become a religious tool for religious leaders. I know many think that has happened allready, but I'm sure it could also become a lot worse if all scence and logic where to be replaced by wholy words. I really hope the relations between science and politics are consolidated in the future of USA, and that the creationalists will stay where they belong, in the minority pit.
I'm also more then worried by potential spread of this illness to europe and the rest of the world. (Alarming facts from our friend in Germany in a previous post). It is in any case a shame that these problems should occur in the USA, rather then other places, as you (americans) are the absolute leading power when it comes to science.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 20 of 132 (329389)
07-06-2006 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hauk
07-06-2006 12:48 PM


Re: Military agressiveness
When it comes to religion and science however, I think many europeans consider this development (the ID controversy), to be a lot more alarming then your foreign policy.
As an American, I find the foreign policy far more troubling. America has a long tradition of new religious cults, and generally manages to take these in stride.
The biggest problem here is the collapse of the newsmedia. Most of what remains has become little more than an arm of the entertainment industry. This affects our politics; a politician who tells entertaining lies will get more coverage than one who is boringly honest.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 21 of 132 (329455)
07-06-2006 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hauk
07-06-2006 7:04 AM


Re: Americans
My original post was probably a bit harsh on the americans.
not really. frankly, we could use a little constructive criticism. that is, if the right will stop tell us that commentary and criticism is un-american. (so much for free speech, right?)
We all know that the majority of your population still have the ability to steer away from this nonsence.
i don't share your optimism. certainly the majority of the portion that counts (voters) seems not to have that ability.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 132 (329464)
07-06-2006 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dan Carroll
07-06-2006 10:03 AM


Re: Americans
Twice.
Once.
Maybe ...

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 23 of 132 (329476)
07-06-2006 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by kjsimons
07-06-2006 11:06 AM


Re: A Freudian slip perhaps?
Exactly

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 132 (329504)
07-06-2006 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hauk
07-05-2006 10:54 PM


The worst thing on planet earth
we all do worry about the negative trend as we see a population moving away from logics, and into what many europeans (and americans) consider a setback.
Welcome to EvC forum. Let me start off by stating that your post was inoffensive. You've done a great job of stating your opinion without being overtly offensive. However, I am a creationist and an American. I'm also a Christian, white, male, and therefore I'm the scourge of the earth by default. That's the worst thing on earth according to popular concensus. How fortunate for me, eh? I think in spite of these faults, most of which were beyond my control, perhaps you and I can establish a dialogue to help understand why creationists believe as they do.
I guess I'd have to first ask why creationism poses such a menacing threat to you. The way you made it sound was as if creationism is worse than a neutron bomb exploding in Oslo. You see the growing popularity in creationism as going backwards. Backwards in what regards? In science? In the belief that there just might be a Creator? Is it an inherent aversion towards religion? Is religion an archaic thing to you only worthy of ignorant and/or less evolved simians, such as creationist-christian-white-American-males? Oh, I'm also a Republican too. Man, its just getting worse for me. I'm slightly higher than a paramecium in some peoples eyes.... but not by much.
Anyway, I have to first ask those questions in order to establish a dialogue worth having.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typos

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 25 of 132 (329509)
07-07-2006 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hauk
07-05-2006 10:54 PM


The Good Fight
There are many Americans who understand exactly what you are saying and are actively working to marginalize the political power of those who, intentionally or otherwise, seek to destroy the ideals upon which this nation was founded. There are always individuals in any society that feel threatened by the rights of others to think for themselves and worship God as they see fit.
The assault upon science, and therefore the economy and military power of the United States by dogmatic religious fanatics is weakening in my opinion, as the instinctive desire of most Americans to live and let live becomes more valuable as more recognize their cherished ideals are under attack. Those who truly care about this nation and its people are gradually awakening to the threat from the abomnible marriage of amoral fundamentalism and amoral politics, which has the sole concern of achieving total dominion regardless of means or cost.
The image of this nation often suffers from incompetent leadership and distorted media interpretation. Let me assure you that the greatest strength of this nation is from the resilency and common sense of the majority of people, which eventually finds its greatest expression in times of crises.
The proponents of ID are in retreat as victories against the forces of scientific ignorance, such as at Dover, have given public school boards pause in embracing inevitably costly taxpayer-funded court fights.
As a veteran and professional educator, I have and am doing what I can to prevent the enemies of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, of science, and of public education, from ever accomplishing their goals. I am by no means alone in this sentiment, and I believe our numbers grow daily. You will find that many members of this forum feel exactly the same way I do in this matter. Among their distinguishing characteristics is that they generally comport themselves with more honor and dignity than some representatives of the opposition.

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Hauk
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 132 (329583)
07-07-2006 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
07-06-2006 11:07 PM


Re: The worst thing on planet earth
Hi. You ask me why i consider creationalism such a treath. I'll give it a shot, but first I woould like to let you know that I'm a science geek, not an actual scientist. I'm actuali a computer engineer working on computer games (Games, unlike the bacteria flagell, still need intelligent designers). I also have some education in history. Primarily european history.
I will try not to mention the most dangerous and most obvious reason for why i fear religon (war and conflict. "It is the will of God"). I'l rather try to put some light on how religion has wrecked havoc earlier. And that is a story that start a long long time ago. The first modern human (hunter gatherers etc) are beleived to have been mostly religious in some sort of way, and I dont blame them. They where surrounded by totaly unexplainable phenomenons like gravity, fire, weather, life/death, deseases, night and day cycle, the annual seasons etc. As mankind evolved, science became more and more evident. Early science often dealt with crucial knowledge to improve mankinds chance of survival and prosperity. When we became agricultural, understanding seasons was the most important thing. As we know, people who had drawings of the mon, the sun and stars, were often accused of dealing with witchcraft, and even centuries later Kopernicus was sentenced to death for claming that earth evolves around the sun. Kopernicus was by no means alone to suffer from punishment for his ideas, but the ones who suffered the most was mankind itselfe. Had these ideas and formulas been accepted earlier, man would overcome many major obstacles earlier. Later on, the forerunner to modern medicine suffered the same destiny as many curious people tried to learn and understand the relation between the material world and our health. In Europe we burned most of these people alive on big fires blaming them for wichcraft. Among European historians it is also a well established agreement that the church had political reasons to hold down science as it was considered a treath to the established political system that worked in favour to te priesthood. Oh well. Power makes anybody crazy, religious or not. In the middle ages, deseases was often beleived to be interventions from gods, so rather then looking for cures etc, people accepted it or made attempts to please the gods by sacrifice and other silly things. Fortunately we got the industrial revolution wich breath new life and acceptance to the earlier greek way of thinking. Science became popular and accepted (with some exceptions in medicine). The benefits of the industrial revolution is what made our living condition better and better (pollution etc is a different challenge). You may say that the unfortunate results of religion happened a long time again, and that times are changed. To me ID theroy is just a sign that times might havent changed that much, or a reminder of the fact that history have a tendency to repeat itselfe. That is why I am scared.
Allright, so the reason why I'm so affraid of the I.D. movement is that it is competing with science, and any progress for ID theory will be on the cost of science. And science is always neutral. It is neither good or evil. In any case, progress in science is always a good thing. I do not understand why science often is considered blasfemy bo others. Charls Darvin did not invent the shocking truth about our origin, he discovered it. Dont shoot the messengers.
The way things are now, people like yourselfe, wish to force this nonsence (sorry man, I really think it is nonsence) into schools. To me that is like presenting options to young people who do not yet have the prerequisite to make an intelligent desition about what to beleive in. It is like presenting 2 sides of every story. "That is historians opinions on how nazism worked in the 40'ies kids... Tomorrow we will have a genuine nazi telling us all about the good sides of nazism". Education should be based on what we know, and it should be the burden of the people with alternatives to reality, to tell their adventures, not schools. I think the pastafarians have a valid point with their Flying Spagetti Monster stunt. If anybody should be able to force their alternative beleifs into the educational system, then the value of education would be severly devaluated. And we would have scools that teached us about UFO abductions, reinkarnation, and of course, adventures about a world that is 6000 years old and suddenly had us standing there as the result of a slap with the magic wand.
I think science is the only way forward for mankind, and I consider ID theory to be a sabotage attemt to science. The real potential danger is in my opinion in the future... If this way of thinking get to evolve, then who knows, maybe neurologist are prevented to work because it is in conlfict with the image of a soul. People do not have nervous systems, we got souls... So no more work on parkinsons desease, altzheimers, epilepsy etc. I guess you got the picture. Also, if we prevent science to work freely in other areas, who knows what kind of good knowledge we are potentially missing?
Me personally, I think your way of thinking is directly wrong, but I normally accept that people are wrong. But when it comes to ID, i sence a bit of misionary spirit, presented by cowards. I think that many creationalists are cowards as I beleive they fear reality. Like ostriches hiding their head in the sand, it seems to me that you do whatever it takes in order to escape the rather "grimm" truth about us humas and the world we live in. When it all comes to it, I suspect that a lot of you guys are actually lying. Lying to us and to yourselfes. I can not understand how anybody can actually beleive that the world is 6000 years old, despite the owerwhelming evidenses saying it is older. I'm sure that deep inside yourselfe you agree, but your afraid to admit it. I sincerely beleive that the existens of my ego is eternally lost as the material where my nevrological combinations are stored, dissintegrates (death). I'm also sincerly convinced that the best option mankind have in our strange and seemingly pointless existens, is to make the best out of things. As an atheist I feel i have a "religion" of my own. I am aware of my instincts and try to make the world the best place possible for me, people around me, and my potential kids in the future. To me, darvins evolution theory is actually contributing to make life seem worth living. It gives life meaning. If some new science (real science), should teach us otherwise, i would still accept it.
When I'm first at it I also feel it is a bit unfair when I read that many americans disstrust atheists more than any other group. What is wrong with us? "We" are the ones who actually make our desitions on what we know, rather then blindly following ancient manuscripts written centuries before mankind knew the first thing about anything. We mean no harm witch science, and we also have moral and ethics.
Oh well... That was my rather messy and lengthy rant on that. Come to think of it, many scientists say the "debate" about ID should not waste intellectual resources, it should rather be ignored. After gettin emotional on the issue myselfe, I see their point.
PS: Being an atheist who use strong words about your beleifs, I do not in any way wish to attack you as a person. We are all brothers in this world. Peace!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-06-2006 11:07 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 132 (329590)
07-07-2006 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Hauk
07-07-2006 10:21 AM


Re: The worst thing on planet earth
Come to think of it, many scientists say the "debate" about ID should not waste intellectual resources, it should rather be ignored. After gettin emotional on the issue myselfe, I see their point.
To understand why the threat from the IDists and Biblical Creationists cannot be ignored here in the US, you need some understanding of our education system.
First, please understand that there is NO National Curriculum or set of standards for education in the US.
Second, teachers work for the local school district. IIRC in the county I live in there are eighteen different school boards. Each of these school boards is elected from the general populus of their area. Again, there are no standards or training needed to be on a school board, the position doesn't pay enough to even cover the costs involved, and they can and do set policy.
Third, Science is more than just the body of information and technology it generates. It is a method of approaching life that requires learning and practice, like any other skill set. It requires learning and applying critical thinking skills. More than anything else it requires and understanding and appreciation of uncertainty.
Fourth, recent studies seem to indicate that the decision to gather those skill sets needs to be made by about the 8th. Grade or it just doesn't happen. That means that it is those very years that are directly under the control of those school boards that will determine whether or not kids get the basics that will allow them to later go into science or as citizens to understand science.
Fifth, many of the Biblical Creationists (See article on Southern Baptists) and IDists are very serious about ether pulling the kids out of the public school systems or of getting on those school boards to control the content and direction of kid's education.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Annafan
Member (Idle past 4579 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 28 of 132 (329672)
07-07-2006 5:57 PM


Hauk typed a very extensive explanation/justification there, but I'm not sure all of it is totally accurate (Copernicus) and/or totally fair. I can see some shots being taken at it. :-) However, the essence is there nevertheless, and jar points to it:
jar writes:
Third, Science is more than just the body of information and technology it generates. It is a method of approaching life that requires learning and practice, like any other skill set. It requires learning and applying critical thinking skills. More than anything else it requires an understanding and appreciation of uncertainty.
(bold by me)
The lack of acceptance of these two, to me, are the main reasons why ID (and the fundamentalist religious mindset) are incomprehensible, to avoid at all cost, and ultimately dangerous.
It is the total and unconditional acceptance of a 2000 year old mix of fiction and fact, that is simply scary, all in itself.
Somehow, fanatic religious faith seems to be able to partly paralyse the brain of their adherents. People who are otherwise able to recognize that personal and collective knowledge needs to be acquired and grows over time (Would you fancy an experienced plumber or a beginner, if given the choice? Would you like to be treated by a doctor from 1750, or one from the year 2000? Would you build your house with materials and according to building regulations of 1800, or the presently available?) , suddenly disregard all this and insist that there is this magical exception: The Bible (or the Quran, or any other 'sacred' old manuscript) The Bible somehow supercedes mythology, the Bible somehow is a source of superior knowledge, the Bible somehow imposes an infallible interpretation of itself into their brains. No matter how many rational reasons are thrown at it, rational arguments which would convince these people in ANY other context.
People and movements who are able to disregard evidence that shouts into their face, to this degree and with this kind of unwarranted confidence, are dangerous IMO. They live and act according to an alternative universe they made up around them. It is almost inevitable that this clashes with the REAL universe out there, and the part of its inhabitants that handles according to its reality, and it is often impossible to communicate with them. And we all know that when communication stops, trouble starts...
If we want to get along, and if we want to get forward, we need to make sure that we all live in the same universe, and that we keep improving our knowledge of it. ID would certainly be a step back in both.

Replies to this message:
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Hauk
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 132 (329674)
07-07-2006 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Annafan
07-07-2006 5:57 PM


I guess I might mix up some details about Copernicus. Maybe he was the first to claim that the earth is a sphere. I dont remember. I guess I have to hide behind the statement that I'm a science geek, rather then a scientist, for other weaknesses and mistakes
More than anything else it requires an understanding and appreciation of uncertainty.
When it comes to this point I have to admit that working for a decade with computer technology, this is probably one of my weaker sides. I'm facinated by uncertainty, but I sure try my best to avoid it in my proffesional work. I do however find uncertainty a serious motivating factor as I am the kind of guy who wish to understand absolutely everything (even though I merly know a tiny bit about a lot). I do totally agree to all point made by yourselfe and Jar.
When I first entered this forum I actually excpected a lot of crazies fighting eachother violently like a bunch of rabid dogs on speed. My reason for entering was pure curiosity. I wanted to see for myselfe how crazy the ID supperters actually are. They "appear" a less crazy then I excpected, wich is probably why they manage to fool that "many". I'm therefor surprised and pleased by the wisdom and knowledge among the other users of this forum. I must admit that I feel like an underdog among many of you when it comes to the actual knowledge, as the topics in this forum is so far away from my own fields of education and profession. But for the same reason I enjoy all kinds of science books, documentaries, edutainment and general science articles, I also enjoy these debates.
I'm also very pleased by the fact that it seems like many good americans really do care about their situation, so I'm rather optimistic that the good guys (guess who?) will eventually be the ones to prevail.
And finally a lame little riddle: What do you get if you put a bunch of people in a big jar and wait for 1000 years?
Answer: Homo Creationalist (Similar to Homo Erectus, but with bibles), and Homo Sapiens v1.2 (Like todays human, but even smarter and without bibles).
Edited by Hauk, : Clumpsy fingers. Typos

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Annafan, posted 07-07-2006 7:01 PM Hauk has replied

  
Annafan
Member (Idle past 4579 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 30 of 132 (329678)
07-07-2006 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Hauk
07-07-2006 6:31 PM


hauk writes:
More than anything else it requires an understanding and appreciation of uncertainty.
When it comes to this point I have to admit that working for a decade with computer technology, this is probably one of my weaker sides. I'm facinated by uncertainty, but I sure try my best to avoid it in my proffesional work. I do however find uncertainty a serious motivating factor as I am the kind of guy who wish to understand absolutely everything (even though I merly know a tiny bit about a lot).
Well, I (we?) meant 'uncertainty' in the sense of being aware and accepting that knowledge is tentative. Feeling secure about it and being willing to change your views in the face of new facts.
As opposed to accepting the existence of somekind of absolute knowledge (the older, the better, it seems LOL). Which means that one sees no need for investigation and open-minded inquiry. Or that one tries to fit/force new facts into the preconceived worldview.
ABE: about Copernicus, it's always good to do a quick Wikipedia check if you assert certain things, lol
Edited by Annafan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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