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Author Topic:   Has EvC changed your beliefs?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 150 of 223 (329470)
07-06-2006 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by robinrohan
07-06-2006 2:57 PM


Your in a unique and very unusual position Robin. You can see the blindness inherent in a number of positions time after time. And no matter how much you point it out, otherwise intelligent (and pretty) people keep on walking into the same old trees as if they didn't exist. You can see blindness.
Now when your told you're blind to something, do you accept that maybe the person telling you has a point?
Imagine your Schraf to Faiths RobinRohan.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by robinrohan, posted 07-06-2006 2:57 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by robinrohan, posted 07-07-2006 11:59 AM iano has replied
 Message 179 by robinrohan, posted 07-07-2006 11:24 PM iano has not replied
 Message 183 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 6:32 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 152 of 223 (329477)
07-06-2006 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
07-06-2006 6:58 PM


Are you saying that Satan is his friend?
An enemy doesn't have to be capable of causing a moments trouble to be an enemy. An enemy that can be wiped out with a handwave is still an enemy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 07-06-2006 6:58 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 07-06-2006 7:24 PM iano has replied
 Message 155 by ramoss, posted 07-06-2006 7:43 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 154 of 223 (329482)
07-06-2006 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
07-06-2006 7:24 PM


Sure, and his agent. Satan does nothing that GOD does not request.
Having entered into debate...
But this is NOT a thread to debate things like that.
And in a fairly obvious attempt at last-wordism we get get DA NAAAAA!!
If you want, why don't you start a topic on it?
And the stopwatch-to-CEASE & DESIST starts.... NOW!
Oh do tell, where does one get the notion that God requests Satan to do all that Satan does?
{Ab head-shaking edit}
God, (being all knowing), sees a heroin addict walk wobbly-legged out of gov.org rehab. Shaken and very stirred, the addict gets a taxi home, open the door to see 3 pairs of eyes awaiting. Her frightened kid, who have been brought home by the addicts mother look with need-loving eyes into the eyes of their mother. "It's okay loves - it's over" The kids, need-trusting, smile wearily at their mother, brighten as only kids can and start to show their mother pictures they painted that day in school.
"Righto" says God, dialling 666 "Satan, we have job-on. See Micko the dealer down there. Get him around to number 43 with a bag of his best horse. And this time I don't want to take No for an answer. I'll withdraw and you advance. Jobs oxo"
Is this the kind of scenario you imagine in whatever god you have rolling around in your imagination Jar
Words fail me.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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 Message 153 by jar, posted 07-06-2006 7:24 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 156 of 223 (329485)
07-06-2006 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by ramoss
07-06-2006 7:43 PM


My dislike for the Christian version of Satan has definately become more pronouced with the way many christians use that here.
Which gives me an idea for a thread.
"Why does Googling "Christian evangelism" result in 87000 hits and Googling " Judaism evangelism" result in 13 hits"

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 160 by Asgara, posted 07-06-2006 11:06 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 163 of 223 (329609)
07-07-2006 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by robinrohan
07-07-2006 11:59 AM


Deleted: wrong poster
I didn't mean literally imagine Robin you dullard. I meant it more constructively than that
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by robinrohan, posted 07-07-2006 11:59 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 168 of 223 (329671)
07-07-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Larni
07-07-2006 3:14 PM


Come on mate, forced choice. I'm not an enemy of something I believe does not exist
You have all the evidence you want for Gods existance all around you. As plain as the nose on your face. But you chose to believe it is accident or "I don't know". You chose to look at the Sony-conquering minaturisation of robotics and programming that is a spider spinning a web, stare in fascination...and say..."accident - it all happened by accident" All the while having plenty of experience with that which one can expect from accident.
An enemy who sticks his head in the sand is still an enemy. God says so.
quote:
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities”his eternal power and divine nature”have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Man hasn't looked into the eternal skys and the vast seas (copyright RR) and wondered about who he is for nothing. Don't let pie-in-the-sky tentitive fool you into thinking the problem has gone away.
That's just mist. Smoke and mirrors
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Larni, posted 07-07-2006 3:14 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by RickJB, posted 07-07-2006 7:46 PM iano has replied
 Message 177 by Larni, posted 07-07-2006 9:30 PM iano has replied
 Message 196 by CK, posted 07-08-2006 11:09 AM iano has not replied
 Message 197 by sidelined, posted 07-08-2006 11:29 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 171 of 223 (329684)
07-07-2006 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by RickJB
07-07-2006 7:46 PM


Your CK-ing
Come on children, Grow up and stick to the topic.
Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 182 of 223 (329798)
07-08-2006 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Larni
07-07-2006 9:30 PM


Dude, my respect for you knows no bounds, but that comment sums up your version of xianty.
Smoke and mirrors.
If 1 Cor 2:14 is true of the non believer then understanding Christianity for you might be expected to be looking through a glass very darkly. I take it you understand the proposed need (of everyone) for and mechanism of the gospel but do not believe what it says. I can do little about that. That is between you and him.
But if the proposed need for and mechanism of the Gospel is still unclear then perhaps we can do a great debate run through on Romans Chaps 1 to say 9. Its all contained within. Or if you like I can give a synopsis of it: main elements contained within and you can read it for yourself and reflect on it. Reading the Bible without the framework is difficult and you can take the suggested framework and decide for yourself whether it accurately represents what Romans conveys.
The Bible distilled to 9 chapters. Can't say fairer than that.
Sorry your low. Christianity solves many things - but not that

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Larni, posted 07-07-2006 9:30 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by ramoss, posted 07-08-2006 9:47 AM iano has not replied
 Message 206 by Larni, posted 07-10-2006 7:52 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 184 of 223 (329804)
07-08-2006 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by nator
07-08-2006 6:32 AM


Bullshit Detector.
Every detector needs to be calibrated against something absolute in order to ensure the reading on the dial can be trusted. Your calibration cert Miss Schrafinator?
...and the calibration cert for the calibration cert
...and the calibration cert for the calibration cert for the calibration cert.
Ad subjectivum infinitum...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 6:32 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 7:06 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 188 of 223 (329812)
07-08-2006 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by nator
07-08-2006 7:06 AM


Calibration of any detector is made to a arbitrary measure, not an absolute one.
Your right: quasi-absolute, pseudo-absolute, subjective, open to re-definition.
My measure is a supremely useful one, invented by us humans, shown over the centuries to give light where before there was the darkness of superstition, fear, ignorance, and myth.
myth and superstition were also invented by humans. Useful to them as yours is to you now. Different calibration certs - same problem
Its tortoises all the way down
Like I said, ian, you should really get one.
I've been there. For 38 years remember? I thought it was useful. It sure did work well in areas (still does in fact). But like superstition and myth, it has its limitations. Your a young slip of a thing Schraf. Wait a while.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 7:06 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 8:13 AM iano has replied
 Message 190 by RickJB, posted 07-08-2006 8:19 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 191 of 223 (329821)
07-08-2006 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by RickJB
07-08-2006 8:19 AM


Her photo suggests 28. Either it was taken a long time ago OR it is heavily photoshopped OR she's doing better for her age than any 38 year old I've ever seen.
No patronising intended.

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 Message 190 by RickJB, posted 07-08-2006 8:19 AM RickJB has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 7:18 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 193 of 223 (329824)
07-08-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by nator
07-08-2006 8:13 AM


Yes, but only inasmuch as it is shown to to not be useful for it's intended purpose will anything in my detector need to be changed.
So you take your sniffer dog detector, stick some BS in its face and say "thats Bull, now go find me some more"
This sniffer dog chases its tail. It finds what you've taught it to find. Like, if something doesn't fit into the terms of reference you have decided works for you then its bull.
Heavens above!
Sacrificing virgins to the volcano god was not useful for what they were hoping to accomplish, but studying volcanoes as natural phenomena is.
Their use was that it made them feel like things were going to somekind of plan. Sacrifice virgins and the volcano wouldn't erupt. If it did the volcano wasn't happy so sacrifice some prettier ones - and the volcano didn't erupt etc etc. Life went on and everything was fine (although virginity must have been seen as much something to get rid of as quickly as possible - much like these days)
Your use is that you like knowing how volcanos erupt so that people don't have to die. Life in your subjective world view is more precious than it was in the subjective world view then.
Different strokes. Had I been discussing this issue with you then your stance would be the same - the only thing that would be different would be that the a la carte 'menu of use' would have different main courses to chose from.
Nothing new under the sun
But they are far fewer than the intellect-strangling limitations of superstition and myth in the way you've depicted and preached yours here, ian.
You mean things like supposing that 'jealous' need not involve the definition of jealously that you extract from your dictionary? This has less to do with how I depict it and more with you forcing your presumptions (without supporting argument in that case)in the works and sticking your fingers in your ears when someone asks you why it is you picked the one you picked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 8:13 AM nator has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 207 of 223 (330268)
07-10-2006 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Larni
07-10-2006 7:52 AM


I do not understand. We could do a Great Debate.....
Fair enough. I'd propose a sequential move through Romans 1 to 9 with the doctrine explained and some background thrown in along the way. The gospel in a 300 post nutshell as it were..
There is a difference between "not understanding" the mechanism and "not believing" the arguments made. Say for instance, I said God gave man free will. For the purposes of describing the mechanism that would need to be assumed to be the case - Adam chose freely. If the discussion revolved around whether he had free will or not or whether man has conscience and whether Jesus rose from the dead etc., then there would be little point in going this route - any of those items is a debate in itself - and none of which can be resolved anyway.
This would be more: attempt to explain the mechanism of the gospel as it applies to all, from the faith alone position...and less out and out, position vs. position debate
What do you reckon?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Larni, posted 07-10-2006 7:52 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Larni, posted 07-13-2006 7:08 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 220 of 223 (331386)
07-13-2006 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Larni
07-13-2006 7:08 AM


Re: Great Debate
I'm not sure Larni. The discussions we have tend to pick up bits of the gospel here and there and I thought it would be useful to present the whole thing (as I understand it) from the faith alone position. I imagine it would involve some essay type pieces going through Romans 1-9 in stepwise fashion with the aim of presenting a reasonably detailed framework. Along the way you might seek (if necessary) clarification on points that appear to be inconsistant with the whole as it is presented.
The aim is to arrive at a complete as possible representation of the gospel according to one position. The faith alone position.
Initial thoughts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Larni, posted 07-13-2006 7:08 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Larni, posted 07-13-2006 7:46 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 222 of 223 (331396)
07-13-2006 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Larni
07-13-2006 7:46 AM


Re: Great Debate
That was the kind of thing I meant, thanks.
I'm off on holidays for a week from Saturday. What I'll do in the meantime is make an opening post starting at with Romans 1. The meat and potatoes of the gospel doesn't start until 1:16 but the initial verses are good for setting some background (historical and doctrinal) which will set out some central concepts which will get worked in as we go. It will make for light enough reading and writing
I'll bring some reading material to France with me to recap on things as well (I love Romans but it is so chock full its easy to forget the significance of the arguments he makes) and try to get a chance to respond to whatever you say re: the first post and perhaps get in a second. Once back I can concentrate on this thread alone - I need something to focus on myself anyway as my posting of late has nose-dived into general flaming.
There is no harm in "Ah buts" along the way. There may well be questions to do with the internal consistancy of the argument but if you are prepared to take on some concepts (which may be additionally backed up from elsewhere in the Bible) at face value in order to allow the picture to build up then that would be the best way to go.
I'll put in a request as a PNT to see if what we are embarking on will fly.
Hope we both enjoy.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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