Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Unethical practices in Evangelism. What is the value of the conversions?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 46 of 105 (329474)
07-06-2006 7:04 PM


Hi Faith
See you got banned again. Means I have the place nigh on to myself!
Enjoyed your Faith-ness in the Potm lite nom. Classic!

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 105 (329523)
07-07-2006 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
07-06-2006 4:42 PM


Re: Does it Stick?
Even though deception was used when approaching the person, there has to be some point at which the person knows he/she is being spoken to concerning Christianity. At the time they convert, they know what choice they are making. We aren't talking about the Spanish Inquisition where the choice is convert or die.
Eventually though, the brainwashing is too much. A well-trained converter can brainwash his prey without it noticing. If this is accomplished, then it's no different that convincing an old lady to innocently sign away her house to the credit card company.
I would think the validity would be determined by whether the conversion sticks or not.
Remember that poor old helpless lady I was just talking about? How valid is it when they come to take her house?
That's where it is the parents job to watch over who their children interact with so they aren't deceived or manipulated.
I think it is the parents who are doing the decieving and manipulating!
Jon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 07-06-2006 4:42 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by purpledawn, posted 07-07-2006 6:05 AM Jon has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 48 of 105 (329530)
07-07-2006 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Jon
07-07-2006 5:25 AM


Re: Does it Stick?
quote:
Eventually though, the brainwashing is too much. A well-trained converter can brainwash his prey without it noticing. If this is accomplished, then it's no different that convincing an old lady to innocently sign away her house to the credit card company.
There's a big difference between changing religions and signing over your house.
Ramoss doesn't seem to be talking about cults, which do seem to brainwash and do some extreme fleecing.
He's talking about converting Jews to Christianity through deception.
Even if you feel a person was "brainwashed", is the conversion valid? Would God accept a manipulated decision?
I don't feel that Jesus or the writers of the NT suggested strong arm tactics. Paul seemed to use a bit of deception, but did he pressure people? His writings don't give me that impression.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Jon, posted 07-07-2006 5:25 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 07-07-2006 7:03 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 105 (329539)
07-07-2006 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by purpledawn
07-07-2006 6:05 AM


Re: Does it Stick?
Ramoss doesn't seem to be talking about cults, which do seem to brainwash and do some extreme fleecing.
A cult and a religion are, in my eyes at least, essentially the same thing.
There's a big difference between changing religions and signing over your house.
But the methods used to elicit either action may be very similiar if not the same.
Even if you feel a person was "brainwashed", is the conversion valid? Would God accept a manipulated decision?
Here's the way I would see it. If a man is told God is great and Christ is the Saviour, etc, and he chose not to accept it, then that's that. If someone manipulates him to believe it, then they are appealing to a different interest and so the reason for believing in God and Christ are not as they should be (out of pure faith) but for reasons relating to the manipulation (give them money, pretend your Jewish, etc).
I don't feel that Jesus or the writers of the NT suggested strong arm tactics. Paul seemed to use a bit of deception, but did he pressure people? His writings don't give me that impression.
No, they may not have pressured anyone, but manipulation is manipulation, whether forced or not.
Jon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by purpledawn, posted 07-07-2006 6:05 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 50 of 105 (329562)
07-07-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
07-06-2006 4:42 PM


Re: Does it Stick?
Even though deception was used when approaching the person, there has to be some point at which the person knows he/she is being spoken to concerning Christianity.
If I was on the recieving end of that dating scenerio, I would be a little pissed, and I doubt I would take anything the person posing as a Jew, to be valid.
I think there is a line you shouldn't cross, when "becoming like a Jew". That line is subjective, but he definatly crossed it by giving false hope to that poor lady.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 07-06-2006 4:42 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 51 of 105 (329567)
07-07-2006 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ramoss
07-06-2006 3:55 AM


Again.. what is the value of a conversion that was based on lies? How about the people who figure out the deceit and leave because of feeling betrayed? Are the unethical methods a stain on all evangelistic efforts? Why or why not?
There is no value on a conversion based on lies, unless the person is truely converted in their heart. I doubt this would happen if it was based on lies, but anything is possible.
The unethical methods definatly stain all evangelistic efforts. So do Preists who molest children. So does a Nun who tries to hit you with a ruler, and not answer your question about mother Mary, and prayer in the bible.
The best thing we can do, is exactly what you did, and that is to point this stuff out as much as possible, but not to say, that all evangilists are bad, or all preists are bad. Christians should be leading this front. (Unless all means many )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ramoss, posted 07-06-2006 3:55 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 9:36 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 75 by nator, posted 07-07-2006 5:21 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 52 of 105 (329570)
07-07-2006 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by riVeRraT
07-07-2006 9:31 AM


How about the approaching of people when they are in a vulnerable state, such as their marriage is being on the rocks, the death of a loved one, or , in one of the examples, a woman with a diminished mental capacitiy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by riVeRraT, posted 07-07-2006 9:31 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by riVeRraT, posted 07-07-2006 9:43 AM ramoss has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 53 of 105 (329573)
07-07-2006 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by ramoss
07-07-2006 9:36 AM


How about the approaching of people when they are in a vulnerable state, such as their marriage is being on the rocks, the death of a loved one, or , in one of the examples, a woman with a diminished mental capacitiy?
I may be wrong, but we are all always in a vunerable state, because we all seek God. The word vunerable can be relative.
But the way I would do it, is to just love that person when they are down, and love them the way God loves me. To help that person in their time of need. When it's all over, if they ask why, then I can tell them about God's love. If I am doing it in the true spirit of the Lord, and in God's love, they will have to then know who God is, because it is not me acting alone. It is a "true love" and they will know. I thank God for showing me this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 9:36 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 9:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 54 of 105 (329574)
07-07-2006 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
07-06-2006 4:42 PM


Re: Does it Stick?
I had to add something to my last reply, and that is my interpretation of "becoming like a Jew".
That means to live with people without offending them, accepting their ways, not rejecting them because of your belief's. To love them, and be like them in their traditions, but definatly not lie to them. How can you decieve someone when trying to deliver the truth to them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 07-06-2006 4:42 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 55 of 105 (329576)
07-07-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by riVeRraT
07-07-2006 9:43 AM


Yet, there are certain times people are much more vulnerable than others. How about when those people are targeted?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by riVeRraT, posted 07-07-2006 9:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by riVeRraT, posted 07-07-2006 10:28 AM ramoss has not replied
 Message 57 by iano, posted 07-07-2006 10:46 AM ramoss has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 56 of 105 (329584)
07-07-2006 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ramoss
07-07-2006 9:51 AM


Yet, there are certain times people are much more vulnerable than others. How about when those people are targeted?
If I would have never came to this forum, I would have never thought there should be a good time, or a bad time to share the gospel. I would never have looked at whether I was taking advantage of someone's mis-fortune.
The way I see it right now, is if the gospel is truth, then it must be preached on the premise of truth.
So maybe every situation calls for it's own judgment. If I go to another country and feed starving people, and preach the gospel to them, people in here would call that exploiting them. But if it was the lack of the gospel that got them to where they are, then I say it is not exploiting them. Many cultures can change for the better, once the truth is revealed to them.
Another example is like the one iano was speaking of before with his neighbor. The reason his neighbor is in the state he/she is, might be ebcause of the lack of knowing the Lord. There is a void, so knowing the Lord would help them.
But overall, I don't think being vunerable is going to determine if a person will make a true choice in their heart about Jesus. Jesus will only start to work in someone's life unless the repentence is real, and true.
Also being vunerable has nothing to do with the intentions of the person preaching. If the person preaching, or evangilising is doing it out of love, and from the Spirit, then the true gospel will reach that person. I find that to be a good thing. If the person preaching is just doing it for his/her own personal gain, then it doesn't matter when or how they are doing it. I find it wrong. It must be done for the glory of God, not for the exploitation of vunerable people, or another notch in the belt. If someone is truely in touch with the Spirit, then they will pray about each individual situation, and God will lead them to the right thing to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 9:51 AM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by nator, posted 07-07-2006 5:29 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 57 of 105 (329587)
07-07-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ramoss
07-07-2006 9:51 AM


Yet, there are certain times people are much more vulnerable than others. How about when those people are targeted?
I don't necessarily see much a problem with it myself. There is an oldish lady across the road, crocked on cigarettes and booze. From time to time we'll sit and share a bottle of wine (in so far as I can manage to squeeze a glass or two out of the bottle) and during that I will tell her about Christ and heaven and hell.
She and her daughter had some falling out 20 years ago and barely speak. It had to do with some lie her daughter told her when the daughter was 14. I don't know what it was. It troubles her deeply that she may go to her grave with this situation but and the only condition she places on reconciliation is that her daughters says "Sorry"
"But Caroline, she was 14 at the time. Do you not think you were responsible for letting this situation propogate throughout those years? I reckon you need to apologise to your daughter. Such self-justification and pride is precisely at the root of the problem between you and God"
She hates that. She can get a bit befuddled at times and in those moments she denies she has ever sinned before God (the quasi-RC version that she believes in). In her more lucid moments she accepts she has indeed sinned. But didn't do anything wrong in this instance.
I refuse to allow her to escape and discussion can get quite heated at times. If I believe her salvation is at stake and what I say is honest then I see no problem "targetting" this vunerable old lady

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 9:51 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 10:52 AM iano has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 58 of 105 (329588)
07-07-2006 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by iano
07-07-2006 10:46 AM


So, you have no problem with the J.W's going to my friend during a difficult time in her marriage, and showing her that the trinity is not in the bible then. You don't see that as an unethical use of evangalism. After all, the J.W's, have the salvation of my friend at stake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by iano, posted 07-07-2006 10:46 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by iano, posted 07-07-2006 11:19 AM ramoss has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 59 of 105 (329595)
07-07-2006 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by ramoss
07-07-2006 10:52 AM


After all, the J.W's, have the salvation of my friend at stake.
No they don't, they just believe they do. Patently no one can prove this, so the ethical/unethical question just...hangs there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 10:52 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 07-07-2006 11:34 AM iano has replied
 Message 63 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 12:24 PM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 105 (329597)
07-07-2006 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by iano
07-07-2006 11:19 AM


ramoss writes:
After all, the J.W's, have the salvation of my friend at stake.
to which iano replies:
quote:
No they don't, they just believe they do. Patently no one can prove this, so the ethical/unethical question just...hangs there.
So would you say that when it comes to things like Faith or Belief or Salvation, the content of the message cannot be used to determine whether evangelism is ethical or not?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by iano, posted 07-07-2006 11:19 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by iano, posted 07-07-2006 11:58 AM jar has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024