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Author Topic:   What "kind" are penguins?
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 76 of 83 (329579)
07-07-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
07-06-2006 5:27 PM


Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.
Penguins could be a "kind" of bird, based on Faith's criteria. But since bats are birds, it is equally possible that penguins are fish.
I say they are warm blooded reptiles.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 77 of 83 (329581)
07-07-2006 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by ReverendDG
07-06-2006 10:50 PM


Re: Why kinds was introduced...
quote:
...no one should be allowed to use kinds in an arguement since it can be twisted to fit anything, thus making it useless
That IS the intended use.

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 78 of 83 (329626)
07-07-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by arachnophilia
07-06-2006 4:46 PM


Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.
Do you think that "variation" of variation exists? Would it exist varietAly?? There is such a thing translated into ENGLISH as "metaphysical kind" and if this could be cashed out I would think penguins could not be warm-blooded kinds on the reptile aggregrate. That looks more to the monotremes to me.

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 79 of 83 (329634)
07-07-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Brad McFall
07-07-2006 1:46 PM


Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.
Are you saying penguins are in the monotreme kind? But don't they have reptilian/bird scales? OTOH monotremes do have a cloaca and I assume penquins do also. Penguins do have feathers and I belive monotremes have fur. One would think that feathers are an ancestral character rather than a derived character (not that this matters if we are talking special creation) because fur should work just as well for insulation whether in water or land.

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 Message 78 by Brad McFall, posted 07-07-2006 1:46 PM Brad McFall has replied

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 Message 80 by Brad McFall, posted 07-07-2006 2:26 PM deerbreh has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 80 of 83 (329639)
07-07-2006 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by deerbreh
07-07-2006 2:10 PM


Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.
Sorry for the polyphyleticism here but I was thinking that parental care seperates in common sense birds from reptiles from mammals generally and that somewhere back in sometime the reptiles might differentiate mentally in us humans EASIER than it is to seperate, in any thought, birds and herps (looking lower down yet again) & whatever it is that BIBLICAL KINDS are to the be the evos thorn of, I doubt that it will be as wide a trap or net that is being discussed in this thread.
The solution I would bank on, is the topology of egg chemicals relative to traced anatomy. I have never tried to give as much thought between "birds" and "mammals" as I have between "reptiles" and "amphibians". In a innocent view it IS easier to see birds with reptiles than mammals but my consideration was not this niave.
You are correct that I would have to explain something of the *chemistry" of keratin to justify what I said. The last time I worked on THAT was with the difference of alpha and beta keratin but herpetologists were not biting. Instead, they always look rather to warm-bloodedness than take in the population constraints that might indicate how to think mammals with reptiles rather than birds. I think birds are moving to the SUN, but hey that is just me. Mammals never took off and herps simply "crawled", Biblically speaking...

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 81 of 83 (329642)
07-07-2006 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Brad McFall
07-07-2006 2:26 PM


Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.
From my experience watching "March of the Penguins" it did seem that the penguin egg was very bird like (hard calcified shelled) vs reptile-like (leathery shell). I don't know what a monotreme egg is like. Is warmbloodedness monophyletic?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Coragyps, posted 07-07-2006 3:24 PM deerbreh has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 82 of 83 (329648)
07-07-2006 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by deerbreh
07-07-2006 2:46 PM


Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.
Is warmbloodedness monophyletic?
No. Birds (with probably several dinosaur cousins) and mammals seem to have arrived at it separately. Other archasaurs like crocodiles never were warmblooded.

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 Message 81 by deerbreh, posted 07-07-2006 2:46 PM deerbreh has replied

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 83 of 83 (329654)
07-07-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Coragyps
07-07-2006 3:24 PM


Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.
Ok then. Well anyway penguins are clearly birds. What "kind" they are in the Biblical sense is another matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Coragyps, posted 07-07-2006 3:24 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
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