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Author Topic:   Why is Israel getting away with these atrocities?
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6374 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 16 of 301 (329705)
07-07-2006 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Buzsaw
07-07-2006 9:07 PM


or they all die
Have you never heard of Mordechai Vanunu? Ever since he revealed the truth about Israel's nuclear capabilities in 1986 the idea that Israel can be destroyed by anyone except one of the superpowers is nonsense.
It's life or death for these people.
And apparently death or meekly accepting being treated like sub-humans for the Palestinians.
I think the phrase is approximately 'a plague on both their houses'.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 301 (329714)
07-07-2006 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by MangyTiger
07-07-2006 9:30 PM


The US has nukes too. That didn't save the twin towers nor would it have saved the capitol had the 4th plane made it to it's target. Cowardly Jihadist terrorists who set out to kill all the innocent citizens they can fear no nukes.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 18 of 301 (329719)
07-07-2006 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
07-07-2006 10:27 PM


Cowardly Jihadist terrorists who set out to kill all the innocent citizens they can fear no nukes.
maybe i'm just dense, but how does "fear no nukes" translate into "cowardly?"


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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 19 of 301 (329738)
07-08-2006 12:03 AM


Hamas is the represents the Palestinians
Wikipedia writes:
Hamas regards the territory of the present-day State of Israel ” as well as the Gaza Strip and the West Bank ” as an inalienable Islamic waqf or religious bequest, which can never be surrendered to non-Muslims. It asserts that struggle (jihad) to regain control of the land from Israel is the religious duty of every Muslim (fard `ain). This position is more radical than that now held by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), which in 1988 recognized Israel's sovereignty. Hamas does not recognize Israel as a sovereign state and refers to it as the "Zionist entity", a common hostile term in Arab political rhetoric, and calls for an end to the state of Israel in its charter.
This is the party of Hamas as it was when the Palestinians elected them. The people of Palestine were very aware of just who it was they were electing. If we were the ones living in Israel, I wonder how any one of us would react to what has happened in that area? It is very easy to be critical while at home living our comfotable lifestyles, in the US, Canada or the UK etc.
Here is the link
Hamas - Wikipedia

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5183 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 20 of 301 (329740)
07-08-2006 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Buzsaw
07-07-2006 9:07 PM


2. Teeny Israel surrounded by nations promoting it's demise is not the US surrounded by water and friendly nations. Israel MUST keep on the offensive and on top of every terrorist act or they all die. It's life or death for these people.
Let's not forget that Israel is a post war invention made in the image of Judea that ceased to exist in 70CE. It was created for to give the Jewish people some where to call their own after the atrocities of WW2. It obviously isn’t working out where it is so let's move it to somewhere that will.
Let's re-locate Israel to some place not surrounded by their traditional enemies... Someplace in the hot arid center of the USA for example. Surrounded by friends the US can serve as an eternal defender for the beleaguered and put-upon Jewish people.

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4014 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 21 of 301 (329749)
07-08-2006 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ohnhai
07-08-2006 12:25 AM


Argentina
Well, Herzl and Pinsker did try to attract interest in an independent Jewish State in Argentina, Cyprus and Uganda, but I guess the traditionalists favoured the old stamping grounds.

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4698 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 22 of 301 (329763)
07-08-2006 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ohnhai
07-08-2006 12:25 AM


Someplace in the hot arid center of the USA for example.
GRRREAT Idea! Let's give em part of Texas. The part that includes the Bush Ranch!
lfen

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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5011 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 23 of 301 (329773)
07-08-2006 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by ramoss
07-07-2006 8:36 PM


ramoss writes:
Funny how that goes.
Well, if you think about it, it pretty much makes sense - the Palestinian population feel backed into a corner and have voted for a government to fight their cause.
The ablity to fight back (in any way they can) is pretty much the only freedom they have left.
Imagine it from their point of view - if an occupying power built a wall around the US, removed a US citizen's freedom to travel, bulldozed homes in strategic areas, crippled the country's economy and dismantled its army, do you not think that civilian Americans would start fighting back in ANY way they could?
Now let's be clear, I'm not arging moral superiority for either side, I'm just pointing out that it is simply not a case of good guys versus bad guys (as much of the American population seem to see it). Over the years Israel has done just as much to perpetuate the conflict as has Palestine. However, as Israel has a formal army structure, it's actions are afforded undue legitimacy.
We are used to hearing this on the news:
"Israeli soldiers were shot by a Palestinian terrorist."
A palestinain might see it this way:
"Israeli terrorists were shot by a Palestinian soldier."
------------------
Now, look at this site from the BBC.
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Intifada toll 2000-2005
From 2000-2005:
Total Israeli deaths - 950
Total Palestinian deaths - 3223
Seems to me that Israel is MORE than just defending itself....
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

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scoff
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: 01-20-2006


Message 24 of 301 (329827)
07-08-2006 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by ramoss
07-07-2006 8:36 PM


So you think it justifies endangering the lives of the people in the hospitals? It justifies putting the entire population of Gaza at risk for a breakout of cholera? It somehow justifies the bombing deaths of innocent civilians?
Regardless of how wrong the actions of Palestinian militants are, it doesn't excuse Israel's use of military force against a civilian population. It doesn't make Israel's arrest of Palestinian government officials an acceptable response. Two wrongs don't make a right no matter how you rationalize it.
I don't know why you'd think it is "funny".

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5612 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 25 of 301 (329845)
07-08-2006 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by scoff
07-08-2006 10:03 AM


The dictators like Japan before ww2 encouraged suicide bombers perhaps this is the problem with Palestine. Dictators care little for the people. The Palestinian leadership proved their lack of compassion under their watch by not providing jobs for their own people.
The biggest enemy to the Palestinians is not Israel but the Arabs leadership that instead of being thrifty has its people rely on welfare *UNRWA* and jobs in Israel.
I suppose the wall is a threat to the Hama's leadership because when has the arabs in control of Palestine ever cared for their own. Like the refuges of Hong Kong.
I have never seen anything made in Palestine and this is not due to a lack of ability of the Palestinians. This is probably why they are so threatened by a wall that keeps its people from entering Israel for jobs.
Palestinians should not be cutting the hand that feeds them yet it has which has cause a wall to be built and with no jobs in Palestine.
The arab rich world needs to care for their own. They need to be exporting products like the peoples of hong kong so the people are not dependent on welfare. The only thing Palistinian leadership appear to be exporting and importing is terrorism. The palestinian people would be better served by the dictators in charge with importing jobs for their own peoples. The palestinian people would
be better served if Israel was in charge of the Palestine peoples needs instead of the Hama's that only appear interested in serving terror.
****resorce articles
The good people of Hong Kong should go down on their knees every night and thank God that there was no UNRWA in the colony in 1949. So, come to think of it, should the German and East European refugees who flooded into Western Europe after WWII. (I have seen the number 14 million somewhere ” the Sudeten Germans alone numbered three million. Where are the festering camps? Where are the suicide bombers?)
Page not found | National Review
Dictators, rulers-for-life
Hamas itself comes under withering fire from several writers, including many who express impassioned support for Palestinians. In the Al Arabiya page someone asks, ''What did Hamas expect'' when it took the Israeli soldier? With concern for the Palestinians and little sympathy for Israel, he cries out, ``The people in Gaza have enough troubles than to be occupied again due to the stupid, irresponsible actions of Hamas idiots.''
The majority of the writing Arab blogs and commentary through the Internet stands in support of Palestinians and remains highly critical of Israel. Still, Arab democrats are increasingly noting that, however much anyone sympathizes with Palestinians, there is little doubt that Arab autocrats, dictators and assorted rulers-for-life have long used the Palestinian cause as a thick cloak to cover up the deficiencies of their rule.
The Internet, it seems, is slowly drawing out the threads of that cloak, making it transparent enough to re- veal the ugly truth it seeks to conceal.
http://www.miami.com/...iamiherald/news/opinion/14992600.htm
Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 301 (329847)
07-08-2006 11:44 AM


What seems to be missing in this discussion is the historical context. People seem to be forgetting that this particular situation in the middle east is the direct result of white European colonists moving into the region without the consent of the indigenous peoples, taking the best land, having the colonial government provide services and infrastructure not available to the indigenous population, and treating the indigenous population as second class subjects. The situation in Israel/Palestine is pretty much the situation that occurred in British North America, Australia, and South Africa.
The main different is that these particular white European colonists have a religious tradition that claims that somehow they are "indigenous" and have "rights" to the territory.

"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

Replies to this message:
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kalimero
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 27 of 301 (329885)
07-08-2006 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by RickJB
07-07-2006 9:21 AM


Of course, the obvious retort to this is to ask what the Israeli soldier was doing in Palestine!
actualy they kiddnaped him out of Israel!
The reason why the Palestinian electorate have turned to a group like Hamas for a government is that they have nothing left to loose.
Israel retreated from the Gaza settelments (a great move IMO) costing much in the way of moral, Israel already offered the Palesinianes a state within the 67' borderes and they didnt take it!
I personaly recieve kasam rockets from Gaza every night!

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 301 (329888)
07-08-2006 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Chiroptera
07-08-2006 11:44 AM


The actual historical situation
...this particular situation in the middle east is the direct result of white European colonists moving into the region without the consent of the indigenous peoples, taking the best land, having the colonial government provide services and infrastructure not available to the indigenous population, and treating the indigenous population as second class subjects. The situation in Israel/Palestine is pretty much the situation that occurred in British North America, Australia, and South Africa.
Well, now there's a piece of PC propaganda for you. Taking the best land? The area called Palestine was pretty much uninhabited wasteland until the Israelis started developing it. Mark Twain wrote about it in the 19th century as about as desolate a piece of real estate as could be imagined. The population was sparse and scattered, including nomadic groups. It had no national identity. Also, there were Jews living there too, who were just as much "the indigenous population" as any other groups, and had been there ever since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Jews bought land when necessary and paid for the labor of much of the indigenous population, plus many who flocked into the area because of the work opportunity.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 301 (329890)
07-08-2006 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by RickJB
07-08-2006 2:03 AM


Well, if you think about it, it pretty much makes sense - the Palestinian population feel backed into a corner and have voted for a government to fight their cause.
Total projection of modern western feelings on them.
The ablity to fight back (in any way they can) is pretty much the only freedom they have left.
Silly projection of western feelings and values. At any time they could have accepted a Palestinian state but their own leaders refused it. Time and time again. And they refused it, always on flimsy grounds, simply because Islam demands that Israel not exist at all.
Imagine it from their point of view - if an occupying power built a wall around the US, removed a US citizen's freedom to travel, bulldozed homes in strategic areas, crippled the country's economy and dismantled its army, do you not think that civilian Americans would start fighting back in ANY way they could?
Are you ever up to your ears in the propaganda. Again, they have had every opportunity to have their own state and refused it. They murder Israeli civilians because that's what Islam demands of them. Israel's defensive actions are no doubt a big problem for them, but the actions of their own leaders, whom they to some degree support, are the real reason for their plight. At any point they could have had both freedom to develop their own national identity and lots of aid from Israel and the west, but their own irrational decisions have made this impossible.
Now let's be clear, I'm not arging moral superiority for either side, I'm just pointing out that it is simply not a case of good guys versus bad guys (as much of the American population seem to see it).
Over the years Israel has done just as much to perpetuate the conflict as has Palestine. However, as Israel has a formal army structure, it's actions are afforded undue legitimacy.
Hardly undue at all. They behave rationally to serve reasonable objectives while Palestinian suicide bombers are serving an irrational idea and targeting innocent civilians.
We are used to hearing this on the news:
"Israeli soldiers were shot by a Palestinian terrorist."
A palestinain might see it this way:
"Israeli terrorists were shot by a Palestinian soldier."
Actually it's more like Israeli innocent citizens blown up by Palestinian terrorist. The Palestinian view of the situation is irrational, self-deceptive and duplicitous. Sorry, reality does just work out that way sometimes, much as we would like to pretend everybody is playing by the same rules.
Now, look at this site from the BBC.
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Intifada toll 2000-2005
From 2000-2005:
Total Israeli deaths - 950
Total Palestinian deaths - 3223
Seems to me that Israel is MORE than just defending itself....
Depends. How many of the Palestinians were terrorist activists and how many Israelis mere citizens minding their own business when they were murdered?
Oh, and I'm sure Israel isn't perfect, has made lots of mistakes, and has done some irrational things too. But as an overall policy, no.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kalimero
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 30 of 301 (329892)
07-08-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by RickJB
07-08-2006 2:03 AM


The IDF's policy on assasinations of terrorists is neglegent at best, but its hard to argue when you have little to do before they enter Israel and blow up a bus full of civilians. IMO the IDF should not use missles at all when trying to kill a terrorist and its more easy since to withdrawl out of Gaza, but they still have kasam rockets (which BTW killed a dear friend of mine).

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