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Author Topic:   Do animals have souls?
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 196 of 303 (329691)
07-07-2006 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by kalimero
07-07-2006 3:07 PM


Yes - whats your point?
I am attempting to have a clear understanding of what I am experiencing.
I now understand I have been attempting to interact with a product.
How silly of me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by kalimero, posted 07-07-2006 3:07 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by kalimero, posted 07-08-2006 11:08 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 197 of 303 (329700)
07-07-2006 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by ramoss
07-06-2006 8:55 PM


Yet, you claim YOU are a soul.
Yes. This is what I choose. Is makes the most sense to me.
What is a soul.
Not what. Who. I do not appreciate being addressed as a what.
Does it exist after 'life'??
No "it" doesn't
Again I do not appeciate being addressed as an "it".
It makes the most sense to me that I will, based on what I have come to understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by ramoss, posted 07-06-2006 8:55 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by sidelined, posted 07-08-2006 3:23 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5927 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 198 of 303 (329788)
07-08-2006 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-07-2006 8:49 PM


2ice_baked_taters
Not what. Who. I do not appreciate being addressed as a what
Yet you have no problem refering this way to kalimero{post 191}. Perhaps you care to explain why you find that such is okay from your point of view yet not so for others from theirs?
How is it you arrive at the conclusion that the "who" you are is a soul?

Dear Mrs Chown, Ignore your son's attempts to teach you physics. Physics isn't the most important thing. Love is.
Best wishes, Richard Feynman.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-07-2006 8:49 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-08-2006 4:28 AM sidelined has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 199 of 303 (329793)
07-08-2006 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by sidelined
07-08-2006 3:23 AM


Yet you have no problem refering this way to kalimero{post 191}. Perhaps you care to explain why you find that such is okay from your point of view yet not so for others from theirs?
Kalimero is defined as a product of interactions among neurons.
Where is the "who" in this?
I simply cannot relate to a product of interactions among neurons.
This is what I currently understand a kalimero to be.
If there is more, it has not been defined.
How is it you arrive at the conclusion that the "who" you are is a soul?
It makes the most sense. It brings the most meaning. No other word that I am aware of fits my understanding better or more simply and completely. There may be others in other languages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by sidelined, posted 07-08-2006 3:23 AM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by ramoss, posted 07-08-2006 7:16 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 631 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 200 of 303 (329811)
07-08-2006 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-08-2006 4:28 AM


The who is the neurological response from the neurons that acts as the analog computer. The 'who' is an emergant property of the action of the neurons of the brain, much like walking is an emergent property of
someone moving their legs in the proper manner.
We can demonstrate this by altering a brain, and making a different 'WHO', by showing a personality/memory change. This has happened to people via accidents. Phineas Gage is an example of this. He was a normal railroade engineer, but an accident drove a metal rod through a certain section of his brain. He , suprisingly enough, lived.
However, he had a strong personality change. He suddenly became a mean son of a gun. Here is a web site dedicated to the analsysi of the situation. http://www.deakin.edu.au/hbs/psychology/gagepage/.
Now, can you give a better definition of a 'soul', and show objective evidence that it exists? Or, is it something that we have to accept just because theists say so?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-08-2006 4:28 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-08-2006 10:33 AM ramoss has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 201 of 303 (329831)
07-08-2006 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by ramoss
07-08-2006 7:16 AM


The who is the neurological response from the neurons that acts as the analog computer. The 'who' is an emergant property of the action of the neurons of the brain, much like walking is an emergent property of
someone moving their legs in the proper manner.
A property is not a who
Property is something owned
By whom it it owned? Or is it ownerless?
We can demonstrate this by altering a brain, and making a different 'WHO', by showing a personality/memory change. This has happened to people via accidents. Phineas Gage is an example of this. He was a normal railroade engineer, but an accident drove a metal rod through a certain section of his brain. He , suprisingly enough, lived.
However, he had a strong personality change. He suddenly became a mean son of a gun. Here is a web site dedicated to the analsysi of the situation. http://www.deakin.edu.au/hbs/psychology/gagepage/.
We all have personality changes. We deal as best we can with what comes our way. This happens without such circumstaces as above. The aproach to the situation above is based on a dogma that I do not acknowledge.
I will explain my understanding in a way you might relate to.
He, software/soul remains intact. He simply has to deal with hardware problems.
Now, can you give a better definition of a 'soul', and show objective evidence that it exists? Or, is it something that we have to accept just because theists say so?
There is no evidence that proves the opinion of your above refference.
It is opinion based on dogma. A point of view about observations. I do not share this point of view. I do not accept it just because theists assert. It is meaningless to my understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by ramoss, posted 07-08-2006 7:16 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by ramoss, posted 07-09-2006 9:59 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2463 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 202 of 303 (329839)
07-08-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-07-2006 8:19 PM


I now understand I have been attempting to interact with a product.
And YOU are not a product? (of evolution, of neural connections...)
What evidence do you have to support this claim (a soul)? and this time bring objective evidence - remember this is the science forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-07-2006 8:19 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-08-2006 12:31 PM kalimero has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 203 of 303 (329863)
07-08-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by kalimero
07-08-2006 11:08 AM


And YOU are not a product? (of evolution, of neural connections...)
No. I am much more than the limited view through the tiny window you choose to peer.
What evidence do you have to support this claim (a soul)? and this time bring objective evidence - remember this is the science forum.
I am well aware of the dogma attatched to science.
The simple truth is any evidence presented in this discussion is useless. As I said before it can only be defined by what you believe. Objective evidence is a falicy. All evidence must be interpreted.
This topic was misplaced with good intention, never the less it was not correctly catagorized.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by kalimero, posted 07-08-2006 11:08 AM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by kalimero, posted 07-08-2006 2:47 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2463 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 204 of 303 (329881)
07-08-2006 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-08-2006 12:31 PM


No. I am much more than the limited view through the tiny window you choose to peer.
You mean the tiny window called science (tested and reviewed), as opposed to your untested, unfalsafiable, unrewiewed, religously dogmatic opinion (its an opinion because of the above).
I am well aware of the dogma attatched to science.
How exactly can a method that embraces critical thinking and peer review, and puts evidence before opinion, be dogmatic.
Objective evidence is a falicy. All evidence must be interpreted.
I agree that there is not such thing as completely objective evidence, science is tentative because of this, that doesnt mean you dont have to present evidence but insted be ready to be peer reviewed until you hypothiesis dies a sudden death.
This topic was misplaced with good intention, never the less it was not correctly catagorized.
No kidding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-08-2006 12:31 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-09-2006 4:00 AM kalimero has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 205 of 303 (330029)
07-09-2006 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by kalimero
07-08-2006 2:47 PM


No kidding.
This is why in our sideline to this topic it could not be comunicated to me that a kalimero is a who. Science is only capable of identifying us as a thing or a what.
Who we are can only be explained through creative philosophical expression.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by kalimero, posted 07-08-2006 2:47 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by kalimero, posted 07-09-2006 7:11 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2463 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 206 of 303 (330037)
07-09-2006 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-09-2006 4:00 AM


Who we are can only be explained through creative philosophical expression.
The thing you refer to as a "who" is composed of "what"s (as I have already shown), therefore a "who" can, ultimatly, be explained by (probably) a collective of "what"s. Philosophy has little to do with it.
This is why in our sideline to this topic it could not be comunicated to me that a kalimero is a who.
Enough of this! lets talk definitions. Notice that the word 'who' (definition #1) is a pronoun and therefore comes to replace a noun - an object - a "what" (if you insist):
Who Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Pronoun - Wikipedia
There is no difference between them, except that the pronoun avoids repetitions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-09-2006 4:00 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-09-2006 9:54 AM kalimero has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 207 of 303 (330046)
07-09-2006 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by kalimero
07-09-2006 7:11 AM


The thing you refer to as a "who" is composed of "what"s (as I have already shown), therefore a "who" can, ultimatly, be explained by (probably) a collective of "what"s. Philosophy has little to do with it.
Assertions
Enough of this! lets talk definitions. Notice that the word 'who' (definition #1) is a pronoun and therefore comes to replace a noun - an object - a "what" (if you insist):
I will be more than happy to recognise you as a causal effect of physcal interactions if you wish. However the conversation would end as I must recognise I am talking to myself.
Come now. I am simply looking for a definition from you if there is one. Rocks falling from a mountain from weatherization. Lightning striking...causal events. The suggestion is there is no difference. The kalimero has given me nothing beyond this. If there is such a thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by kalimero, posted 07-09-2006 7:11 AM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by kalimero, posted 07-09-2006 12:54 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 631 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 208 of 303 (330047)
07-09-2006 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-08-2006 10:33 AM


You are making the asserion.. "A property is not a who'.
PLease provide evidence for this.
I have shown evidence that 'who', (Our mind).. is a property of the neurons. Your just dismissing it does not disprove my conclusion based on the evidence of the study of the brain.
Do something more that 'no,, you are not right'. Show some evidence.
And you are also using the logical fallacy of 'equivication' . The perm 'property' isn't just ownership. Property can also mean characteristic.
So, your arguement is void.. filled with logical fallacies and assersions.
Where is your evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-08-2006 10:33 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-10-2006 7:15 PM ramoss has not replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2463 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 209 of 303 (330081)
07-09-2006 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-09-2006 9:54 AM


Assertions
I have already given you evidence and stated that I did so:
(as I have already shown)
I am just following the logic that is derived from my evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-09-2006 9:54 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-10-2006 7:32 PM kalimero has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 210 of 303 (330592)
07-10-2006 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by ramoss
07-09-2006 9:59 AM


I have shown evidence that 'who', (Our mind).. is a property of the neurons. Your just dismissing it does not disprove my conclusion based on the evidence of the study of the brain.
Any evidence must be interpreted. All you have cited is interpretation. One you choose to agree with. I do not agree with this interpretation.
I also do not agree with the dogma for the premise of the study. This interpretation simply supports your belief.
And you are also using the logical fallacy of 'equivication' . The perm 'property' isn't just ownership. Property can also mean characteristic.
Bingo! One is the possesor of property. So are you a collection of charicteristics or are you the owner of them? It is quite simple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by ramoss, posted 07-09-2006 9:59 AM ramoss has not replied

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