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Author Topic:   Unethical practices in Evangelism. What is the value of the conversions?
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 76 of 105 (329664)
07-07-2006 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by riVeRraT
07-07-2006 10:28 AM


quote:
But if it was the lack of the gospel that got them to where they are, then I say it is not exploiting them.
Are you seriously saying that people starve in third world countries because they aren't Christian?
What about the Christians who are starving?
And anyway, how can you possibly know that the people are starving because they "lack the gospel", whatever that means?
People starve because they don't have enough food, often because political situations have displaced them and prevented them from being able to provide for themselves.
War and repressive and unstable governments (which lead to the destruction of land, commerce, and entire economies) is what causes starvation, in Christian and non-Christian nations alike.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by riVeRraT, posted 07-07-2006 10:28 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by riVeRraT, posted 07-08-2006 8:36 PM nator has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 105 (329670)
07-07-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ramoss
07-06-2006 9:24 AM


The point is that he gave up his Jewish faith long before he started "Jews for Jesus"> He was a minister for a christian church for 10 years.
Just in point of fact he was NOT a minister for a Christian Church ever. I already said that. Not that it matters much in this context, but you have your facts wrong here. He was ordained but never practiced as a minister. Many go through ordination who never pastor churches.
Moishe Rosen - Wikipedia
In any case he continued to consider himself a Jew quite honestly. You may not, but he does.
The vast numbers of "Jews for Jesus" are not even of Jewish heritage.
I've heard this bizarre canard many times too. Where on earth do you get this idea? I don't know the statistics but Jews for Jesus is for Jews and its members are mostly Jews by heritage.
You might say it is 'just his life's work', but it is based on deceptive practices and lies.
This is just slander. Most Jews who believe in Christ consider themselves Jews because of their ethnicity and because they consider the New Testament to be a very Jewish book. You are imposing your own definition on them and insisting they think the way you do.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ramoss, posted 07-06-2006 9:24 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 6:32 PM Faith has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 78 of 105 (329675)
07-07-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
07-07-2006 5:53 PM


The fact of the matter is, he WAS. He got his education at a Christian seminary 10 years before. He was an ordained Baptist Minister for 10 years before founding the J4J.
The J4J use Baptist theology, and is funded by the Southern Baptists, and has Southern Baptist ministeres on it's board of directors.
Deciption.. lies and more lies.
From his bio
"Diploma, Northeastern Bible College, 1957; DD, Western Conservative Baptist Seminary, 1986. Ordained to ministry Baptist Church, 1957."
See.. Ordained to ministry Baptist Church, 1957. His own words show you are inaccurate.
Do you accept that you are incorrect?
Here is a link to about him in the current J4J web site. Notice. 1957 .. ordained to the ministry. That is not a jewish schimica.. that is a Baptist ministry
And out of the J4J's I know, 3 were from Christian families, and 1 was from a secular Jewish family.
Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 07-07-2006 5:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 07-07-2006 7:24 PM ramoss has replied
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 07-07-2006 7:55 PM ramoss has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 105 (329680)
07-07-2006 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ramoss
07-07-2006 6:32 PM


The fact of the matter is, he WAS. He got his education at a Christian seminary 10 years before. He was an ordained Baptist Minister for 10 years before founding the J4J.
I KNOW he got ordained, I said that OVER AND OVER. But NOWHERE have I seen that he pastored a congregation. Please show that he did or stop saying this. He simply worked as an evangelist. That's all I've ever read about him. Where did he pastor a church?
The J4J use Baptist theology, and is funded by the Southern Baptists, and has Southern Baptist ministeres on it's board of directors.
Deciption.. lies and more lies.
There is no deception except in your imagination.
From his bio
"Diploma, Northeastern Bible College, 1957; DD, Western Conservative Baptist Seminary, 1986. Ordained to ministry Baptist Church, 1957."
See.. Ordained to ministry Baptist Church, 1957. His own words show you are inaccurate.
Do you accept that you are incorrect?
I ALREADY SAID THREE TIMES ALREADY THAT HE GOT ORDAINED. That does NOT mean he pastored a CHURCH. He got ordained to ministry in a Baptist church but did not actually ever pastor a church. Ordination means he's QUALIFIED to pastor a church, but it doesn't mean he actually did so. He got the training as support for his evangelism to the Jews.
Here is a link to about him in the current J4J web site. Notice. 1957 .. ordained to the ministry. That is not a jewish schimica.. that is a Baptist ministry
I'm trying to teach you something. Being ordained as a Baptist just means that's where he got his training. It does not mean he ever was the pastor of a congregation.
He also considers himself Jewish although he believes in Jesus. You apparently, like many ethnic and religious Jews, think that's wrong, but every ethnically Jewish person I've known who came to believe as a Christian still thinks of himself or herself as Jewish. Jews for Jesus, like many other Jewish-Christian ministries, is very big on showing the Jewish and Old Testament meanings fulfilled in Christ, such as all the Jewish holidays. They are very attached to their Jewish heritage. I also think they overdo this, but there is NO deception involved in it.
And out of the J4J's I know, 3 were from Christian families, and 1 was from a secular Jewish family.
You'll have to come up with a better source for the membership of Jews for Jesus than your own limited experience.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 6:32 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 8:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 80 of 105 (329686)
07-07-2006 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ramoss
07-07-2006 6:32 PM


One more time to get this clearer.
Most Jewish Christian or Messianic Jewish groups continue to have the ingrained distrust most Jews have of anything "Christian," which they regard as "Gentile," meaning inherently anti-Jewish. They don't like calling themselves Christians for this reason and they don't like even using the English name "Jesus" for this reason, preferring the Hebrew sound of "Yeshua."
This ought to be understandable to anyone I would think, considering their history of persecution. On the other hand when it goes to extreme lengths it is also just wrong, and offensive to the Christian Church, besides also putting off ethnic and religious Jews. So the more they can grow out of this ethnic attachment of theirs, the better for all concerned.
BUT THERE IS NO DECEPTION INVOLVED IN THIS. They regard Yeshua as their very own Jewish Messiah, and this is how they are best able to appreciate Him. Actually it's odd that you criticize Jews for Jesus for this, because they are the LEAST offensive in this regard of all the many many Messianic Jewish ministries that are out there now.
It is academic how many members of Jews for Jesus or any other Jewish Christian organization are ethnic Jews, and academic whether any leader or member of these groups has particular Bible or theological training as Moishe Rosen does. It's not important. They would be ethnically Jewish Christians who are attached to their Jewish heritage no matter what level of theological training or affiliation with nonJewish Christians they have.
I simply believe you to be factually wrong when you insist that Rosen functioned as a minister in a church, and ask you to prove this. And please prove also your contention that most members of JfJ are not ethnically Jewish. I really don't know, but I think you are just making it all up because you have this false idea about the whole thing.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 6:32 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 8:31 PM Faith has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 81 of 105 (329693)
07-07-2006 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
07-07-2006 7:24 PM


It doesn;t matter one bit if he pastored at all. The point was he was a Baptist Minster, and CHristian. Jews for Jesus is like "Christians for Islam" or "amphibians for frog legs".
It is decepitive to it's very core.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 07-07-2006 7:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 82 of 105 (329695)
07-07-2006 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
07-07-2006 7:55 PM


I know that there are peopel who want to call them 'messnanic jews' Or 'Jewish christians' But they are not Jews. They might dress up as Jews, and sit around and pretend to be Jews, but they are NOT of the Jewish faith. They are CHristians.
And the vast majority of "messanic Temples" are funded by Christian evanglaistic churches.
Follow the money.. and you can see they are NOT Jewish synoguogues

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 07-07-2006 7:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 07-08-2006 3:59 PM ramoss has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 105 (329894)
07-08-2006 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ramoss
07-07-2006 8:31 PM


The whole thing is a movement BY Jews FOR Jews. Many nonJewish Christians back the movement, but they did not start the movement, and there are many other Christians, including some formerly Jewish Christians, who are opposed to the insistence on Jewish identity within the Messianic movement. But within that movement it is a Jewish cause, and they think of themselves as Jews, and they insist on holding on to their Jewish identity. It's a Jewish thing, Ramoss, their choice, not anybody else's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ramoss, posted 07-07-2006 8:31 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ramoss, posted 07-08-2006 8:37 PM Faith has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 84 of 105 (329937)
07-08-2006 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by nator
07-07-2006 5:29 PM


Are you seriously saying that people starve in third world countries because they aren't Christian?
What about the Christians who are starving?
Good point. I wouldn't say all peopl in third worlds are starving because they are not Christian.
But say that there was food available for them, and a way to get it, but it is the way they act, that prevents them from having it. Coming to know the Love of Jesus might change all that for them. It is part of what we do in Hope for the Nations. We make todays orphans tomorrows leaders, so they can become self suffcient, after we help them get started.
Evem right here in New orleans, ther are many down there who are turning to God, because once you lose all your material possessions, you start to realize just exactly what is important.
And anyway, how can you possibly know that the people are starving because they "lack the gospel", whatever that means?
Check otu the movie "end of the spear." It's about tribes in Ecuador. Although they weren't starving, they were killing each other off. Coming to know the Lord has changed that for them. It is based on a true story. It is opne example of how the Lord can change societies for the better.
People starve because they don't have enough food, often because political situations have displaced them and prevented them from being able to provide for themselves.
If the true spirit of the Lord would fall on these people, it could change, I believe that with all my heart.
War and repressive and unstable governments (which lead to the destruction of land, commerce, and entire economies) is what causes starvation, in Christian and non-Christian nations alike.
Agreed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by nator, posted 07-07-2006 5:29 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 10:52 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 85 of 105 (329941)
07-08-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
07-08-2006 3:59 PM


That is the point. It is not a movement BY jew for Jews. It is a movement by Christian minister, funded by Christian CHurches, to evangalise to the Jews.
Look at who is on the board of directors.
They use dishonest measures to try to convert (for example, putting pressure on that woman with alzheimers.
You have totally convinced me that not only the J4J's are dishonest, but all of Evangalsitic christanity. I hope you are proud of that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 07-08-2006 3:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 07-08-2006 10:58 PM ramoss has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 86 of 105 (329981)
07-08-2006 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by riVeRraT
07-08-2006 8:36 PM


quote:
But say that there was food available for them, and a way to get it, but it is the way they act, that prevents them from having it.
Er, can you give an example of the kind of behavior that is exclusive to Christianity that would allow starving people to get food that is avilable to them that they otherwise cannot possibly get?
I mean, the only scenario I can imagine is that there are some Christians who have the food and demand that the starving people convert to Christianity before they give it to them.
I doubt that this is what you mean, so perhaps you can enlighten me?
quote:
Evem right here in New orleans, ther are many down there who are turning to God, because once you lose all your material possessions, you start to realize just exactly what is important.
Well, sure. Most people will cling to any kind of hope or comfort to get through the day if they are made desperate enough, especially if they were raised in a culture wich considers it normal and correct to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by riVeRraT, posted 07-08-2006 8:36 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by riVeRraT, posted 07-09-2006 10:18 AM nator has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 87 of 105 (329983)
07-08-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ramoss
07-08-2006 8:37 PM


You have totally convinced me that not only the J4J's are dishonest, but all of Evangalsitic christanity. I hope you are proud of that.
I guess I have no choice but to be proud of being misunderstood and in a sense even persecuted (slander is a form of persecution) for defending the Jewish believers in the Messiah. Thank you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ramoss, posted 07-08-2006 8:37 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ramoss, posted 07-09-2006 10:11 AM Faith has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 88 of 105 (330052)
07-09-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
07-08-2006 10:58 PM


If you want to be proud for being unethical, and percecuted for cheering on the attempts to destroy other religions.. feel free.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 07-08-2006 10:58 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by AdminPD, posted 07-09-2006 10:30 AM ramoss has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 89 of 105 (330055)
07-09-2006 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by nator
07-08-2006 10:52 PM


Er, can you give an example of the kind of behavior that is exclusive to Christianity that would allow starving people to get food that is avilable to them that they otherwise cannot possibly get?
You are turning it into an absolute. I quote myself from Message 56
quote:
But if it was the lack of the gospel that got them to where they are, then I say it is not exploiting them. Many cultures can change for the better, once the truth is revealed to them.
I used the word if.
As far as another culture benifiting from hearing the truth, the Waodani tribe in the movie end of the spear, is the perfect example. I am sure there are many more examples. This statement isn't trying to make Christianity into some life changing thing, because we all know the record that Chrisitianity has. But the true gospel, or the real spirit of God, can change lives, not religion. That is what I am trying to get at.
I mean, the only scenario I can imagine is that there are some Christians who have the food and demand that the starving people convert to Christianity before they give it to them.
You know that's not what I mean, that would be wrong. We go help people whether they choose Jesus or not. Hope for the Nations will even use non-faith based grants to go and help people, that means we cannot even preach the gospel to them. IF you read my other comments in this thread, you would know that I believe if we just act out of the love of God, and Christ, then that is all that is necessary to bring them the truth.
Well, sure. Most people will cling to any kind of hope or comfort to get through the day if they are made desperate enough, especially if they were raised in a culture wich considers it normal and correct to do so.
Well that's just it. I am not up on all the specifics of it, but New Orleans was not known for it's Christianity, they were known for their voodoo. But your right, people will cling on to any hope they have.
Edited by riVeRraT, : fixed quote bracket

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 10:52 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by nator, posted 07-12-2006 6:16 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 92 by jar, posted 07-12-2006 6:32 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 99 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-20-2006 8:08 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 90 of 105 (330060)
07-09-2006 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by ramoss
07-09-2006 10:11 AM


Argue the Position
Ramoss,
Please refrain from personal attacks.
Do not take your frustration with J4J out on Faith.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ramoss, posted 07-09-2006 10:11 AM ramoss has not replied

  
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