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Author Topic:   Will scientists ever find the connection between the physical and metaphysical?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 40 (330015)
07-09-2006 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
07-08-2006 6:56 PM


The question then is; is it possible for scientific research to ever knowingly encounter the metaphysical?
If that happened, wouldn't it, by definition, be physical? The problem I have here is the same problem I have with asking if "science can study the supernatural"; neither "metaphysical" or "supernatural" seem have definitions that would allow metaphysical or supernatural things to actually have any effect in the real world, yet somehow be beyond the realm of science.
It's all too easy to understand things like "magic" and "psychics" and other things as "supernatural", because we intuitively grasp that, when these constructs come up in fiction or mythology, they're like extentions to the "natural" laws from our world - say, for instance, Dungeons and Dragons has both Newtonian gravity and arcane spells. What people don't seem to pick up on is that, if these things were present in our world, they'd be part of our natural laws (just as they are held to be in the fictional conceit of D&D.) So they wouldn't be any more supernatural or metaphysical then any other technology.

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 Message 1 by GDR, posted 07-08-2006 6:56 PM GDR has replied

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 Message 4 by GDR, posted 07-09-2006 2:18 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 8 of 40 (330043)
07-09-2006 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
07-09-2006 2:18 AM


I'm not suggesting that science would be able to study the metaphysical but that they might discover the point where the physical is connected to the metaphysical.
Whatever anything physical is connected to is physical, by definition. The scope of "physical" includes all actors that interact with the things we already recognize as physical.
In other words - I still don't understand what "point" you're talking about.
I think that we would agree that at some point science would be able to prove that all particles are tiny little bits of energy. Would the physical sciences be able to make that next step and determine that before a particle is a bit of energy it is actually a bit of information. If they could I would think that would mean that science had found the connection between the physical and the metaphysical.
I don't think so. If science progressed in that way, it would mean that science had discovered that information was physical.

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 Message 4 by GDR, posted 07-09-2006 2:18 AM GDR has not replied

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 Message 9 by Percy, posted 07-09-2006 10:01 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 30 by randman, posted 07-09-2006 11:29 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 31 of 40 (330204)
07-10-2006 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by randman
07-09-2006 11:29 PM


Re: Is the human will physical?
If such mental things are considered physical for this discussion, then why not metaphysical or spiritual things?
If the metaphysical is physical, then why have two different words?
I think that science is perfectly willing to conduct investigations into things that you might consider "spiritual" or "metaphysical", so long as they're well-defined. For instance, if the claim is made that one possesses a spiritual power that can move objects without touching them, that's a well-defined claim that can be easily tested.
But to simply wonder about "the metaphysical" leaves scientists waiting for more information, for the question to actually be defined. To address the question in the OP - exactly what "metaphysical" are we talking about, here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by randman, posted 07-09-2006 11:29 PM randman has replied

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 Message 33 by randman, posted 07-10-2006 12:26 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 34 of 40 (330213)
07-10-2006 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by randman
07-10-2006 12:26 AM


Re: why dodge the issue
why are you dodging my questions?
I've answered the only relevant question in your post, which is right at the end, where you ask why the metaphysical can't be the physical. And the answer is obvious, as I said: because if the metaphysical was the physical, we'd call it "physical" and not "metaphysical." It's like asking why blue can't be red. Because if it was, it wouldn't be blue!

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 Message 33 by randman, posted 07-10-2006 12:26 AM randman has replied

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 Message 35 by randman, posted 07-10-2006 12:38 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 36 of 40 (330216)
07-10-2006 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by randman
07-10-2006 12:38 AM


Re: No, you are dodging.
Are mental conditions physical?
How about the human will?
How about consciousness?
How about love?
All words we use to describe physical people doing physical things, so yeah, I'd say that to the extent that those things exist, they're in the physical world.
If mental things are connected to the physical, by your definition they are physical, right, and yet we have 2 different words.
2 different words, but not two antonyms. "Mental" is not the opposite of "physical." So these aren't relevant examples.
So by your inclusive definitions, metaphysical and spiritual things are physical too, just as long as any connectivity to the physical world exists.
"Metaphysical" and "physical" are antonyms. The metaphysical can't be the physical because, to the extent that "metaphysical" has any sort of definition, that definition is "something different than the physical."

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 Message 35 by randman, posted 07-10-2006 12:38 AM randman has replied

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 Message 37 by randman, posted 07-10-2006 12:55 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 40 (330261)
07-10-2006 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by randman
07-10-2006 12:55 AM


Re: No, you are dodging.
What the heck are you talking about?
Antonyms? You don't know what an "antonym" is?
Physical and mental are different spheres just as physical and metaphysical are.
Well I think I made it pretty clear that they're not; it's more the difference between "doctors" and "dentists" than it is the difference between "doctors" and "non-doctors."
Things are "mental" because they occur in the mind, which occurs in the physical world. But things that are "metaphysical" are called that because they are held to be inherently non-physical.
Thus, to ask where the physical meets the non-physical doesn't make any sense; inherent to their defintions, they can never meet. What could be both physical and non-physical at the same time? A /= ~A is the most obvious conclusion of logic.

This message is a reply to:
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