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Author Topic:   The Ark - materials, construction and seaworthness
jar
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Posts: 30997
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Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 5 of 231 (327131)
06-28-2006 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
06-28-2006 3:16 AM


It was made of Gopherwood. Unfortunately no one knows what Gopherwood is.

There is not much that one can say about whether or not it would be sea worthy since little except its demensions are given and they are given in unknown units that can have several actual lengths.

The best way to approach it would be from a nautical perspective, and based on that it is most unlikely. A good comparison would be to look at some of the great wooden ships of all time. For example the USS Constelation was about 160 feet long and had a beam of over 40 feet. The very biggest of the woden vessels were the Barques, Brigs and Brigantines, and they only reached a maximum length of about 250'.

A wooden vessel of the size speculated for the Ark might have been possible, and might have been sea worthy, if Noah had the technology and body of knowledge of the ship builders of the late 1800s.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 27 of 231 (327238)
06-28-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
06-28-2006 2:20 PM


an example to illustrate your point
On of the really great hurdles that had to be overcome to make voyaging safe and possible was "How to build a timepiece that worked at sea?" All of the motions iano is proposing were there to be used, but unfortuantely, all of that available energy actually precluded the possibility of building such a timepiece. It was not until ways were found to isolate and remove the effects of those motions, and an alternative power source was developed that did not depend on those motions that a maritime clock became possible.


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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 54 of 231 (327343)
06-28-2006 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
06-28-2006 2:58 PM


Re: an example to illustrate your point
several times.


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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 55 of 231 (327344)
06-28-2006 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
06-28-2006 5:32 PM


There is a device similar to what iano describes, it is the sea anchor.

The problem is that if a boat is making leaway, things that are over the side are rapidly carried astern. The force on the material will be aft, directly towards the stern of the vessel and would likely sheer off any capstans and crew that happened to be in the way.

One other thing to remember is that a Barque, Brig or Brigantine which would be smaller than Noah's Ark, would have had a crew of 20-30 and NO masses of livestock to tend.


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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 97 of 231 (328353)
07-02-2006 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by deerbreh
07-02-2006 8:37 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
Let's not get too depreciating. At the time the flood supposedly happened there were some pretty sophisticated technology in use. remember the Pyramids were already old, lots of waterworks all over the world.

I don't know of any examples of piston type pumps but there were lots of lever operated devices, lots of floats, lots of water lifing and heavy materials moving technology. Granted the wheel had not been developed yet but skids and other labor saving devices were known.


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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 104 of 231 (328486)
07-03-2006 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by deerbreh
07-03-2006 9:16 AM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
There are a few indications that such technology existed. IIRC in 2004 the Hibernian Tablet was found which lists a series of patent rights granted to one Noah&Sons of North Tukkas Mesopitamia for various devices including:


  • a cockle shell shaving device which when drawn over one of the Cedars of Lebanon while being rotated about the circumference of said Cedar of Lebanon yields one continuous sheet of wood suitable for hanging within closets.
  • a method of producing a non water-soluble adhesive made from masticated shellfish.
  • a method of pasting two or more sheets of Tukkas Cedar of Lebanon Closet Liners® together to form a single thicker sheet by the continuous application of human keisters.
  • a shit slinger.


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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 132 of 231 (328930)
07-05-2006 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by riVeRraT
07-05-2006 10:46 AM


jar writes:

A wooden vessel of the size speculated for the Ark might have been possible, and might have been sea worthy, if Noah had the technology and body of knowledge of the ship builders of the late 1800s.

to which riVeRraT replied

quote:
Or a blueprint from God.

The blueprint from GOD would not be much help. Having the design or blueprints does not mean that one has the materials, skill, toolset or capability of actually building what is in the blueprint.

There are some examples that are known and that can be looked at for comparisons purposes. There were the Mersey and Victoria class wooden battle ships that reached a length of about 340 feet, but they proved to be unstable and not very sea worthy and all were retired very shortly after being built. In addition, both designs had the advantage of using steel straping and internal supports, technologies that would not have been available to Noah.

There is the example of the fabled Chinese Treasure ships of the Ming Dynasty, but even these ships were only about 400 feet long, considerably shorter than the 450 feet of the alleged Ark. Those ships, like the fabled Ark, are known only from historical documents and nothing has ever been found that would suggest they actually existed or were used. The fact that much later designs, those from the European shipbuilders of about 500 year after the Ming Dynasty seem to indicate that a wooden ship of about 340-350 feet length was reaching the structural limits of wood ships even with the advantages of materails and technology not available 500 years earlier, seem to indicate that a ship 450 feet long is very unlikely around 2500BC or so.


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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 136 of 231 (329122)
07-05-2006 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by riVeRraT
07-05-2006 10:24 PM


just a few corrections.
Is a wood so hard that you wear out drill bits trying to drill through it. It also is heavy and would sit lower in the water increasing stability. I don't know if it was possible that Noah had access to wood like this.

That's not quite right. Ebony is hard but not that hard. I've worked ebony myself making scales for pocket knives and it works pretty easily. I also have a knife made for me by David Brodziak where the handle is make from Ebony.

So take that stuff about how hard it is with a grain of salt.

Also, Ebony doesn't grow in the area where Noah was building his boat and no signs of it every growing there have been found.


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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 151 of 231 (330171)
07-09-2006 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Nighttrain
07-09-2006 10:33 PM


Re: To pitch or not to pitch
IIRC the first fully waterproof adhesive suitable for using with wood to make laminate was developed in 1934.


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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 153 of 231 (330302)
07-10-2006 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by johnfolton
07-10-2006 12:31 AM


Re: Baltic Amber (Pitch for Noah)
Tap Amber with a hammer and it shatters. Also, amber is not pitch, no matter how much you'd like to pretend it is.


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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 156 of 231 (330328)
07-10-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by johnfolton
07-10-2006 11:06 AM


Re: Baltic Amber (Pitch from Noah's Flood ?)
Amber is a time hardened resin which formed from pitch.

No, it isn't. Pitch is a distillate, amber is not. It is brittle understress and does not hold things together. It is great for jewelry but totally useless as a sealant for a boat or holding boards together. A mixture of pine tar and moss would do far better.

Really, get something right.


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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 175 of 231 (330797)
07-11-2006 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by deerbreh
07-11-2006 10:50 AM


Re: I am not an engineer but i think a 450 foot wooden
That sucker is going to roll. No stabilizers either. So in addition the shit piling up, there is puke everwhere.

No it ain't. :P

That sucker will only pitch or roll in an earthquake. It ain't going nowhere.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 184 of 231 (331194)
07-12-2006 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by DrJones*
07-12-2006 3:01 PM


among other things like safety belts.
riverrat asserted that "they may have said the ark was self righting" to which DrJones* replied:

For them to know that, they'd have to have a good idea about the mass of the ark. And since nobody has been able to come up with a sample of "gopherwood" or any of it's physical properties, this is all just talk emanating from a dorsal orifice.

They would have to know a hell of a lot more than just mass.

The idea of building a model of "The Ark" is so absolutely ludicrous that it is beyond laughable. The FACTs are that there is not enough details given in the myth to even begin such a design. You can build a boat of the approximate length, width and height mentioned in the myth, but to then say that it is a model of the Ark is just plain fantasy piled on enigma.

But the idea of it being self-righting is even funnier. To do that the designers would need to know more about the moment of the boat, the distribution of that mass while the boat is in normal transit and the moment of the boat, the distribution of that mass as it rolled over.

In addition, put a few elephant (not sure if they are clean or unclean so lets say it's just two) in a box and roll the box down a hill, and then YOU open the box. Then continue the test with the boxes that contained the rinos, crocks, lions, tigers, dinos, snakes, scorpions, wild ox, and let me sit in some safe spot as the other seven folk open the different boxes.


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jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 187 of 231 (331205)
07-12-2006 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
07-12-2006 4:25 PM


Not to mention, since the subject is "materials, construction and seaworthness", one of the materials we now need to locate is the hunk of wood that is >450 feet long, with a diameter of >75 feet.

These suggestions just keep one getting funnier.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 220 of 231 (331443)
07-13-2006 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by riVeRraT
07-13-2006 6:47 AM


Waves?
Since seaworthness is part of the topic, this is almost on topic.

riVeRraT asks:

Who said there was waves during the flood anyway?

Sorry riVeRraT but that is just silly. By definition the flood is moving water. Moving water will have waves. In addition, the alleged flood covered objects. By definition when moving water encounters objects there will be disturbances.

No waves, no flood.


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