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Author Topic:   The Ark - materials, construction and seaworthness
Percy
Member
Posts: 18417
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 181 of 231 (331080)
07-12-2006 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by riVeRraT
07-12-2006 6:54 AM


riVeRraT writes:

It's like I don't even want to discuss it then. I mean what is the point of building an ark anyway? The whole story is tied together.
What is the point of debating where Noah got the knowledge from, if God wasn't the one who told him to build it?

EvC Forum exists to examine creationism's claim to be science as much as any other field of science. If you believe the Genesis story to be impossible if not for divine intervention then you must reject the claim that creationism is legitimate science. The Theological Creationism and ID forum exists for those who take your position.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2006 6:54 AM riVeRraT has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 16461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 182 of 231 (331130)
07-12-2006 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by riVeRraT
07-12-2006 7:00 AM


riVeRraT writes:

... they may have said the ark was self righting.

Like a kayak?

If you recall, my original question to you, in Message 141, was:

quote:
Do you suppose the cows would enjoy all that end-over-end flipping?

The same would apply to "self-righting" rolling behaviour, would't it? Either way, it would be a very rough ride for crew and passengers - with few survivors.

You need to be a lot more critical of your sources. You should be asking them the questions that people are asking you.


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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1838
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 183 of 231 (331185)
07-12-2006 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by riVeRraT
07-12-2006 7:00 AM


they may have said the ark was self righting

For them to know that, they'd have to have a good idea about the mass of the ark. And since nobody has been able to come up with a sample of "gopherwood" or any of it's physical properties, this is all just talk emanating from a dorsal orifice.


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 184 of 231 (331194)
07-12-2006 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by DrJones*
07-12-2006 3:01 PM


among other things like safety belts.
riverrat asserted that "they may have said the ark was self righting" to which DrJones* replied:

For them to know that, they'd have to have a good idea about the mass of the ark. And since nobody has been able to come up with a sample of "gopherwood" or any of it's physical properties, this is all just talk emanating from a dorsal orifice.

They would have to know a hell of a lot more than just mass.

The idea of building a model of "The Ark" is so absolutely ludicrous that it is beyond laughable. The FACTs are that there is not enough details given in the myth to even begin such a design. You can build a boat of the approximate length, width and height mentioned in the myth, but to then say that it is a model of the Ark is just plain fantasy piled on enigma.

But the idea of it being self-righting is even funnier. To do that the designers would need to know more about the moment of the boat, the distribution of that mass while the boat is in normal transit and the moment of the boat, the distribution of that mass as it rolled over.

In addition, put a few elephant (not sure if they are clean or unclean so lets say it's just two) in a box and roll the box down a hill, and then YOU open the box. Then continue the test with the boxes that contained the rinos, crocks, lions, tigers, dinos, snakes, scorpions, wild ox, and let me sit in some safe spot as the other seven folk open the different boxes.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 78 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 185 of 231 (331199)
07-12-2006 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by DrJones*
07-12-2006 3:01 PM


I don't see why the ark would have to be self righting at all. Why let it roll over in the first place? A look a the density of wood shows us that we would be very safe in assuming (and it makes explaining easier) that the arks wood was about as half as dense as water. (the figures here are density relative to water which is 1000 kgs/m3)

http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_wood.htm

This means that a solid lump of such wood the size of the ark would float half in/half out of the water. Now excavate large lumps of that, that which is not required in order to provide a strong structure/that is required in order to provide space for the animals. Now airs density is effectively zero. Thus for every animal (approximate density the same as water) you need to excavate twice the animals volume out of the wood in order to maintain the animal filled ark half in/half out of the water.

Now add ballast to the bottom of the ark (rocks?) so as to get it to sit lower and lower in the water - say 7/8ths in the water. Thats a lot of ballast.

Is such a beast going to capsize? I think not.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 186 of 231 (331202)
07-12-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by iano
07-12-2006 4:08 PM


iano writes:

Now add ballast to the bottom of the ark (rocks?) so as to get it to sit lower and lower in the water - say 7/8ths in the water.

The lower it rides in the water, the more likely it is to founder. The higher it rides, the more likely it is to roll over.

It's a lose-lose situation.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 187 of 231 (331205)
07-12-2006 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
07-12-2006 4:25 PM


Not to mention, since the subject is "materials, construction and seaworthness", one of the materials we now need to locate is the hunk of wood that is >450 feet long, with a diameter of >75 feet.

These suggestions just keep one getting funnier.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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iano
Member (Idle past 78 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 188 of 231 (331208)
07-12-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by jar
07-12-2006 4:35 PM


That's the way us engineers work Jar - conceptually.
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18417
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 189 of 231 (331209)
07-12-2006 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by iano
07-12-2006 4:08 PM


Hi Iano,

Two points.

First, you have no evidence tying your speculations to the Ark.

Second, you have no evidence that your speculations are a successful way of making boats that don't sink. The world's ocean floors are littered with the hulls of wooden boats whose designers had every intention that they remain afloat.

As described several times in this thread, there are a large number of variables that have to be properly manipulated when building a boat, especially a large one, and the history of shipbuilding says that new boats can only be incrementally different from existing boats, else various undesirable characteristics will be introduced, such as a tendency to capsize or founder or leak or break up or any number of other problems.

--Percy


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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 78 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 190 of 231 (331211)
07-12-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Percy
07-12-2006 4:46 PM


I persist as you persist. You talk technolgy as if anything here was super-complex going on here. Your appeal to the "history of the advance of technology" seeks to circumvent the fact that any old fool with a boat could see the principles involved. Let me ask you Percy, if you were a kid with a plastic bucket and a sea at your disposal: how long would it take you to figure out that adding a couple of stones in the bottom of the bucket aids seaworthyness no end.

Think Occams Razor..


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 78 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 191 of 231 (331218)
07-12-2006 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by iano
07-12-2006 4:51 PM


The story circulates in my family about me as a 9 year old (Robin: pay attention here)

I can't remember the context, but my father had some reason to ask "is the floor in the sitting room level?" Apparently I disspeared for a minute or two, only to return with a ball bearing which I placed on the floor and discovered that the floor was indeed not level - at least not locally. Veritable mountains existed at floor level was what was discovered.

Noah was a little older and wiser by all accounts


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Percy
Member
Posts: 18417
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 192 of 231 (331222)
07-12-2006 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by iano
07-12-2006 4:51 PM


iano writes:

I persist as you persist.

Well, yes, you do persist, but you persist in the absence of evidence.

You talk technolgy as if anything here was super-complex going on here. Your appeal to the "history of the advance of technology" seeks to circumvent the fact that any old fool with a boat could see the principles involved.

As I just noted in my previous message, the floors of the world's oceans are littered with the hulls of wooden boats whose designers intended that they should remain afloat. Obviously the task of boat design is not as simple as you think.

Let me ask you Percy, if you were a kid with a plastic bucket and a sea at your disposal: how long would it take you to figure out that adding a couple of stones in the bottom of the bucket aids seaworthyness no end.

You're ignoring the foundering problem, and the added ballast requires additional strength of materials. Plus, if you have a bucket and no tub for testing, which is the case with the ark, then you cannot figure out how much ballast will provide the necessary balance between stability and resistance to foundering.

Strength of the ark is another issue. If the ark is held up by waves at each end, it must be able to resist cracking in two at the bottom. And if the ark is instead held up in the middle by a single wave, then it must be able to resist cracking in two at the top. Significant ballast severely worsens this concern.

--Percy


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 193 of 231 (331224)
07-12-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by iano
07-12-2006 4:59 PM


iano writes:

... only to return with a ball bearing....

That story would ring more true if you used a marble. Even if your version is accurate, consider redacting it for future telling. ;)

... as a 9 year old....

As a 9 year old, I used to sink boats in the bathtub. :D

Try loading a few marbles on a boat and stirring up a storm. Will the cargo stay on board? Will the shifting cargo upset the trim?


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Percy
Member
Posts: 18417
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 194 of 231 (331225)
07-12-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by iano
07-12-2006 4:59 PM


iano writes:

Noah was a little older and wiser by all accounts

As were the designers of all the boats now sitting on the bottom of the sea.

--Percy


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iano
Member (Idle past 78 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 195 of 231 (331226)
07-12-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Percy
07-12-2006 5:11 PM


Don't know about that. Of the 70 or so fellow students who sat engineering finals with me, there were but two whose final year projecs I would absolutely trust (sight unseen) to function approximately according to the intention of the project-setter

B.Mech Eng (hons) is but a title. It confers no true engineering ability. Think of all those who claim Christianity and you'd get the gist


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