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Author Topic:   Hovind busted, finally
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16320
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 16 of 308 (331748)
07-14-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jazzns
07-14-2006 12:12 PM


...Or from that dangerous foreign power - the United States of America....

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 308 (331756)
07-14-2006 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
07-14-2006 7:05 AM


quote:
So take no joy in Hovind's difficulties.

I also would not wish the experience of the US penal system on anyone.

Unless part of his preaching included a "get tough on crime" message; I have a weakness for poetic justice.


"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

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jar
Member
Posts: 32664
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 18 of 308 (331758)
07-14-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chiroptera
07-14-2006 1:45 PM


Club Fed?
I also would not wish the experience of the US penal system on anyone.

He would probably only get sent to Club Fed, and that life doesn't sound too bad. While there he could probably get tips on how to better shield his wealth from the IRS.

I'd just like to be in a position where I could withdraw $400 from some account, much less $400K. LOL


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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PaulK
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Posts: 16320
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 19 of 308 (331762)
07-14-2006 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chiroptera
07-14-2006 1:45 PM


Nevertheless Hovind has certainly asked for it. He could have just paid his taxes or at the least stuck to legal tax avoidance schemes. He's been refusing to pay taxes for years while raking in huge sums of cash.

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jar
Member
Posts: 32664
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 20 of 308 (331764)
07-14-2006 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Coragyps
07-14-2006 11:32 AM


What is your point?
Guns that belong to the church? WTF?

Why to you show surprise?

quote:
And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Percy
Member
Posts: 19844
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 21 of 308 (331770)
07-14-2006 3:34 PM


I'm curious!
I'm curious whether Hovind ever advocates tax evasion in any of his public utterances. Taxes don't seem to be mentioned at the Dr. Dino website. I've only watched one video presentation by Hovind, and only listened to one of the Jared call-in radio programs, so maybe he mentions it in one of those. Anyone know?

--Percy


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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 22 of 308 (331782)
07-14-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
07-14-2006 7:15 AM


Romans go home
The building permit story was on ABC World News Tonight a few weeks ago (they show it late at night on BBC News 24 over here).

I was in stitches when they showed a clip of the County Commission Chairman saying this:

"Scripture also says 'Render unto Caesar what Caesar demands.' And right now, Caesar demands a building permit,"


Oops! Wrong Planet

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 308 (331844)
07-14-2006 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Percy
07-14-2006 3:34 PM


Re: I'm curious!
I've heard and watched him an estimated six or eight times on Sky Angel (Dominion Network) who has their own satelites. I don't remember of him mentioning taxes. The stuff I followed was his science oriented programs. There's quite a number of US citizens who use the system's laws to evade. Likely if he weren't legal he'd have been busted long ago. I don't know how they do it, but hey, if it's legal, I guess the system's to blame.

After all, the system does it to us all, like when the system with the stroke of a pen abolished the promise on every money bill silver certificate to pay on demand in silver the amount on the bill. I have some of those bills/legal documents myself to remind me that it's not just the American Indians who's legal stuff needs fixed. It's just that they are the only ones the system/government listens to nowadays in repatriation.

Maybe the system needs to be a better example of what's fair and just. Like the system expells you from your own home if you don't pay your tax/rent (some homes are taxed as much as home rent) on it so for all practical purposes the system claims to own your home (confiscation by the system).

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 308 (331893)
07-15-2006 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
07-14-2006 9:02 PM


And the award for most inventive apologetics goes to...
I have some of those bills/legal documents myself to remind me that it's not just the American Indians who's legal stuff needs fixed. It's just that they are the only ones the system/government listens to nowadays in repatriation.

Maybe the system needs to be a better example of what's fair and just.

It's true. Hovind being arrested for 58 separate crimes really just goes to show how good the Native Americans have it. Compared to them, Kent's gotten a raw deal.

Either way, though... the two cases are so very comparable.


"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 25 of 308 (331895)
07-15-2006 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
07-14-2006 7:52 AM


catch-22
Does the USA still have the 'insanity' plea?

for tax evasion?

no sane person wants to pay taxes.


אָרַח

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lfen
Member (Idle past 3228 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 26 of 308 (331896)
07-15-2006 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
07-14-2006 7:58 AM


think arguing with everyone may just be Hovind's way of dealing with the world.

When I come across people in the style of Hovind I always suspect that behind their successes and failures is a character disorder. Whether narcissistic personality disorder or the more severe antisocial character disorder, they just don't feel responsible and always assume that they are entitled always to preferential treatment.

US laws give considerable financial and legal protections to religions that exploiters use to shelter themselves. If you've the talent for it, selling religion is both safer and more profitable than selling used cars, dealing drugs, etc. Your target market is going to be resistance to debunking which gives you considerable leaway in your claims and behaviour.

I'm beginning to think that more important than science instruction in schools is instruction in how to identify and deal with character disorders. These individuals are running wild in contemporary society, exploiting people right and left and unless they really mess up getting away with it.

lfen


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lfen
Member (Idle past 3228 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 27 of 308 (331898)
07-15-2006 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
07-14-2006 9:02 PM


Re: I'm curious!
remind me that it's not just the American Indians who's legal stuff needs fixed. It's just that they are the only ones the system/government listens to nowadays in repatriation.

I appreciate the humor but then I recall that conservatives, even well off conservatives really do feel sorry for themselves. Their ancestors came over and killed and imprisoned the natives and stole their land and now feel sorry for themselves because they have to pay for some of the costs of fighting wars in Iraq and Afganistan.

We should make those Indians pay for our wars! After all we beat them! It's not fair we should pay, poor poor us and our highways to drive our big gas guzzlings cars on.

I feel so sorry for Christians! All these godless people drawing down hurricanes on the US and then the taxes they have to pay. We need more for our tax dollars. Lets kill all the natives, democrats,liberal Christians, gays, atheists, idolators and set up a God fearing nation, no disasters. Nuke the hell out of the rest of the world and bask in self righteousness being served by a handful of pious third world wage slaves that we permit to buy our pepsi and coke and worship the way we tell them to.

Robin feels nausea about what he calls the boasting of athiest. I don't know how so many can stomach the self pity of the conservatives who seek to financially exploit the rest of the world and then become indignant at having to pay part of the bill, most of it being passed on to their children in the form of national debt. Bush and the war profiteers keep raking it in. But oh, no it's those native Americans who are to blame. Poor poor conservatives. You are polluting and ruining the world and blaming it on people too poor to resist your huge but costly military.

lfen


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3450 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 28 of 308 (331901)
07-15-2006 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
07-14-2006 7:58 AM


what about the other side's story here?
If he was guilty of tax fraud way back in 96, then what happened? I am not saying he isn't wrong, but I am curious. He obviously didn't go to jail or prison. What was the basis he was able to dodge the IRS?

Heck, if he is as wrong as you guys say, it's an interesting story all on it's own on how he could effectively win in tax court.

I have never read the arguments, but ran into a couple once that said you didn't have to file and pay your taxes, and over the years you hear stuff like that, and wonder.....

How are these guys doing it?

Is there some legit way to opt out of filing?

I just thought they were being misled, but maybe not.


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mark24
Member (Idle past 3746 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 29 of 308 (331904)
07-15-2006 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
07-14-2006 9:02 PM


Re: I'm curious!
Buz,

There's quite a number of US citizens who use the system's laws to evade. Likely if he weren't legal he'd have been busted long ago. I don't know how they do it, but hey, if it's legal, I guess the system's to blame.

Tax avoidance is legal & consists of legitimate ways of reducing your tax burden, such as tax free savings, tax deductables etc. Tax evasion is illegal non-payment where payment is required, & most western countries come down hard.

Maybe the system needs to be a better example of what's fair and just. Like the system expells you from your own home if you don't pay your tax/rent (some homes are taxed as much as home rent) on it so for all practical purposes the system claims to own your home (confiscation by the system).

If you rent then it's not your home anyway, is it? They confiscate your home to pay taxes that you should have paid anyway. NOt that a level of leniency shouldn't be displayed in some cases where the option is living on the street, but otherwise, tough. It's all there in black & white.

Likely if he weren't legal he'd have been busted long ago.

Following that logic we can say most people are innocent, if they were guilty they would have been busted a long time ago. The IRS has just taken its time to build a case.

Hovind's dishonesty extends to all areas of his life. Have no sympathy.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3450 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 30 of 308 (331905)
07-15-2006 2:40 AM


comments on the charges
In the indictment unsealed Thursday, a grand jury alleges that Kent Hovind failed to pay $473,818 in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes on employees at his Creation Science Evangelism/Ministry between March 31, 2001, and Jan. 31, 2004.

As part of the ministry, Hovind operated the Dinosaur Adventure Land at 5800 N. Palafox St., which included rides, a museum and a science center. He also sold literature, videos, CDs and other materials and provided lecture services and live debates for a fee.

The indictment alleges Kent Hovind paid his employees in cash and labeled them "missionaries" to avoid payroll tax and FICA requirements.

This is sort of interesting legally. I think there are tax rulings that state direct payments can be made to missionaries and be tax deductible. Now, I think calling all of his employees missionaries is probably a stretch, but there is no doubt, from his religious perspective, that the theme park is a ministry, and as a ministry, why can't he count all workers as missionaries?

It's a loophole, and I kind of doubt he will prevail, but at the same time, making it a criminal offense to take advantage of legal tax loopholes....is that right?

The indictment also says the Hovinds' made cash withdrawals from AmSouth Bank in a manner that evaded federal requirements for reporting cash transactions.

The withdrawals were for $9,500 or $9,600, just below the $10,000 starting point for reporting cash transactions.

Most of the withdrawals were days apart. For example, the indictment shows three withdrawals of $9,500 each on July 20, July 23 and July 26 in 2001.

I don't get this at all. So it's illegal to withdraw amounts that will draw less notice? I suppose this is a conspiracy charge, meaning that he was hiding criminal actions, but once again, if the workers are legally missionaries, then how is this illegal?

Iam not saying this is wholly ethical or legal on Hovind's part, but the tax system does have all sorts of deductions, loopholes, etc,...and maybe he is completely within his rights here, and the IRS is just ticked off about it.

Frankly, I am not sure anyone, the IRS, accountants, lawyers or tax judges understand all the intricacies of the tax code and tax rulings. You may not like Hovind, but saying he definitely committed a crime here is wrong. The mere fact he is indicted does not mean he is guilty.


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