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Author Topic:   Hovind busted, finally
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 31 of 308 (331906)
07-15-2006 2:46 AM


building permits?
Just wanted to add a separate comment....why would he be so oppossed to building permits on religious grounds?
Certainly, I think nearly everyone at one time is upset with some governmental regulation, but not bothering to get a permit?
Just seems bizarre. He had to know they would shut it down, or maybe not?

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 32 of 308 (331915)
07-15-2006 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by randman
07-15-2006 2:40 AM


Re: comments on the charges
quote:
Now, I think calling all of his employees missionaries is probably a stretch, but there is no doubt, from his religious perspective, that the theme park is a ministry, and as a ministry, why can't he count all workers as missionaries?
Do you know how the IRS defines "employee" and/or "missionary"?

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 33 of 308 (331916)
07-15-2006 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by randman
07-15-2006 2:40 AM


Re: comments on the charges
This is sort of interesting legally. I think there are tax rulings that state direct payments can be made to missionaries and be tax deductible. Now, I think calling all of his employees missionaries is probably a stretch, but there is no doubt, from his religious perspective, that the theme park is a ministry, and as a ministry, why can't he count all workers as missionaries?
I think you have just explained why the IRS was so slow acting on this. Because of the nature of what he has been doing and claiming, they would need to be exceptionally careful in building and documenting a case.
My guess is that they have a really solid case. But I guess we will have to wait and see.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 34 of 308 (331921)
07-15-2006 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by randman
07-15-2006 2:14 AM


Re: what about the other side's story here?
randman writes:
If he was guilty of tax fraud way back in 96, then what happened? I am not saying he isn't wrong, but I am curious. He obviously didn't go to jail or prison. What was the basis he was able to dodge the IRS?
I couldn't find out any details of the final outcome of Hovind's 1996 tax case. My guess is that the seized property (cars, a computer) was sufficient to settle the tax bill, and that the charge was civil fraud, not criminal. I think the IRS shies away from use of criminal fraud charges in tax protester cases.
The Wikipedia article on Hovind has a Tax Evasion section that mentions an attempt made by the Hovinds in 1998 to "revoke and make void...all signatures on any instruments" on government documents they had signed regarding the 1996 tax case, but I was unable to find any specifics about which documents. Whatever they were, the Hovinds evidently felt they no longer wanted to be held to them.
--Percy

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 35 of 308 (331932)
07-15-2006 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
07-14-2006 9:02 PM


Re: I'm curious!
After all, the system does it to us all, like when the system with the stroke of a pen abolished the promise on every money bill silver certificate to pay on demand in silver the amount on the bill.
the money is no longer on the silver or gold standard. it is represenative of the labor and trade within the country and the credit owed the government in out taxes. keep up with economics eh?
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 36 of 308 (331933)
07-15-2006 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by arachnophilia
07-15-2006 1:23 AM


Re: catch-22
*coughs*
i really rather like the services my government provides, and i know precisely how much military families appreciate their pay and pentions. when i make enough to actually get taxed, i will gladly pay. sure, they're inefficient and could probably use a lesson from a few other countries in money management. but for now, it's really not so bad.
and, i would argue, have many documents demonstrating my sanity.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 37 of 308 (331942)
07-15-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by randman
07-15-2006 2:46 AM


Re: building permits?
Certainly, I think nearly everyone at one time is upset with some governmental regulation, but not bothering to get a permit?
I find that strange, too. There was a news item somewhere (??!!) within the last month about a large church built by a congregation in Alabama(?) without the aid of architects, engineers, or building permit - the pastor builds houses on the side. The roof collapsed the Thursday night before the grand opening Sunday services.
Building permits do have a purpose...

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 38 of 308 (331957)
07-15-2006 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by nator
07-15-2006 6:46 AM


Re: comments on the charges
Why don't you explain it to us? The IRS says no direct gifts can be made to anyone, but in tax court, there is a ruling stating the opposite for missionaries. It's a bit more complex than you realize legally.

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 39 of 308 (331958)
07-15-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Percy
07-15-2006 8:58 AM


Re: what about the other side's story here?
I don't know. I thought the IRS specifically went after people with criminal charges if they were blatantly trying to never pay or file.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 07-15-2006 8:58 AM Percy has replied

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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 40 of 308 (331960)
07-15-2006 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by randman
07-15-2006 12:30 PM


Re: comments on the charges
Here is one church org discussing this issue
Handling Contributions for Specific Missionaries

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 41 of 308 (331969)
07-15-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by randman
07-15-2006 12:32 PM


Re: what about the other side's story here?
randman writes:
I don't know. I thought the IRS specifically went after people with criminal charges if they were blatantly trying to never pay or file.
By and large I think the IRS understands that its primary purpose is revenue. The ultimate destination of any very determined tax protester is probably jail, but I assume the IRS begins most cases by pursuing the money owed it rather than punishment.
I do know that in the recent tax issue the IRS charges Hovind with civil fraud, see page 4 of http://www.ustaxcourt.gov/InOpHistoric/Hovind.TCM.WPD.pdf.
--Percy

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 42 of 308 (331987)
07-15-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by mark24
07-15-2006 2:24 AM


Modeling the Divine Judicial System!
Following that logic we can say most people are innocent, if they were guilty they would have been busted a long time ago. The IRS has just taken its time to build a case.
Well Jews and Christians claim that's how God does it, so why not the USA? Everyone is guilty of original sin and all other crimes. The government will bust you at it's convenience. You can plead for mercy. How's that for a model judicial system?
lfen

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 43 of 308 (332036)
07-15-2006 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by randman
07-15-2006 12:30 PM


Re: comments on the charges
quote:
Why don't you explain it to us?
Because I don't know the answer.
That's why I asked.
quote:
The IRS says no direct gifts can be made to anyone, but in tax court, there is a ruling stating the opposite for missionaries. It's a bit more complex than you realize legally.
I figured.
That's why I asked.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 44 of 308 (332042)
07-15-2006 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by macaroniandcheese
07-15-2006 10:15 AM


Re: catch-22
and, i would argue, have many documents demonstrating my sanity.
uh huh. right.
i'm know you way too long for that argument to work.


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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 45 of 308 (332056)
07-15-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by arachnophilia
07-15-2006 5:47 PM


Oh, they're so cute!
Blech!

This message is a reply to:
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